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| Q&A: Dr David Hartman on Head Injuries (824 Posts)
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snell reply
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On 9/11/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Dr.Dave :-)
I would still think a petition would be a good idea.
Numbers = $$'s etc etc
No one even says how they 'test' these things! Or
what the true results were. Is that information so
difficult to give to the buyer?
Heavy helmets in a cold environment ( and believe me,
i do know about behind the head impact and it hurts
like ____ even on pretty, white snow..) are tolerable.
But under a hot sun, in 75+ temps while exerting
to the max? Oh well, even if our heads shrink, at least
they won't be split open.
I don't have the equipment or expertise to design a very
protective skate lid. But, it sure would be nice if skaters
were consulted about what *they'd* like and also
if they were tested by riders ( not employees of the company ).
I don't mean to 'rant' and don't want to leave with the
impression that I am in any way *against* helmets. That would
be ridiculous. But there are safety and technical issues that are very important that up till now have barely been seriously considered, not by the riders, but by those
who sell 'safety gear' to us. And a petition, while not a
total salvo, would at least let them know we're onto 'em.
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Water Lids
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On 9/11/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(209.244.nnn.nnn)
Patio, I’m looking forward to hanging w/ you and the rest of the southeastern skate crew in GA this weekend. As for my helmet rants, for the time being something is better than nothing. At least I'm ProTected if I fall in a puddle.
Laters,
DR
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water sports helmets...
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On 9/11/2002 Patio...
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
not sure if this would mean for a water skier, or a kayaker who will bash into big rocks and stuff. they're mostly sold as kayak helmets, I believe.
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Shoulder Pads
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On 9/11/2002
The Boz
wrote in from
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Dan,
I'm continuing this over in Safety Equipment.
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Toy Helmets
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On 9/10/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(166.90.nnn.nnn)
The all mighty dollar (aka profit) is better than the truth (aka consumer rights):
I wouldn't care so much about the toy helmets except Pro Tec and the like should not be allowed to pawn off helmets to skateboarders all while knowing that they don't recommend using them for skateboarding. Read the fine print on the stickers hidden inside the helmet. Is it recommended for street use or water use?
BTW, Dr. D, thanks for the Snell info.
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Choosing a safe helmet: Snell replies to Snoball
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On 9/10/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
I sent a email over to Ed Becker of Snell (the group that safety-certifies helmets) asking about how to find safe boarding helmets. Here is his reply (Thanks Ed):
"We had orignally set up the N-94 program for skate boarding headgear as well as other activities where a little extra head coverage was manageable but N-94 is not receiving much interest these days. Vigor sports made two rugged N-94 models somewhere between bicycle and motorcycle helmet capabilities. Their "Da Bomb" model was N-94 and had found a lot of favor with snow board enthusiasts. Those guys tend to take a lot shots to the back of the head and were grateful for the extra coverage and management, "Zero G" was similar to "Da Bomb" but "Da Bomb" featured a lot of venting while "Zero G" was pretty much a closed shell. Both also came in full face configurations.
A bicycle helmet may be the most appropriate helmet available for some. Most of the available headgear will not be Snell certified but Specialized is still in the program and makes some great headgear. You might also consider some of the skiing helmets on the market. I would recommend against anything less that than an ASTM qualified ski helmet made by a reputable manufacturer. The ASTM ski helmet standard looks for bicycle helmet levels of performance but does have a little more coverage. The Snell RS-98 standard demands quite a bit more of ski helmets than ASTM. A Snell certified ski helmet is likely the most protection available short of motorcycle headgear.
The next level up would be motorcycle helmets. A DOT motorcycle helmet from a reputable manufacturer has a lot more protective capability than the best ski and bicycle helmets and a Snell certified motorcycle helmet has about all the impact protection that anyone has tried to squeeze into a hat. Whether a boarder can wear one and still go boarding is a call beyond by my expertise but, I'm sure that if he can and does, at some point in his career he'll be glad he did."
Regards
Ed Becker
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Which would you buy?
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On 9/10/2002
dan
wrote in from
(162.78.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Boz.
Ok, which would you buy. I'm not sure. I'm leaning toward the first one. And would you wear it on the outside of your shirt, or under?
dan
#1
#2
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various
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On 9/10/2002 patio
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
pads. they stay on when you start riding. then you sweat. they sponge up the sweat and get squishy and slippery inside. I always start cranking them down as soon as I start sweating alot. this keeps them from slipping off. usually.
the problem is, when I start getting that hot and sweaty, I also get lazy and don't want to exert the effort to adjust the velcro. in those cases, I usually have a tumble and the pad comes off next run...I keep 2 sets of knee pads for this reason, and swap out to the dry ones in mid-session.
shoulders. I seperated my shoulder and it was about a year before it was fully back to normal. at 6 months it was still weak, and a small tumble almost re-injured it. okay, it made it hurt like heck for a few weeks. Let it heal, and don't "test" it. I still am very careful of it, and only started doing berts and coleman type slides again this past month or so.(1.5 yrs after the injury) It also depends on the degree of shoulder seperation, I guess...
helmets. ProTec has warnings in the helmet "not for motor sports" which pretty well tells you that they don't feel they are ready for a vehicular traffic accident. But most skatepark riding doesn't get above 15mph. these "toy" helmets are good for riding our "toy" skateboards. I have taken hits wearing various protec helmets, and have had no regrets about 'em.
if you are racing downhill at 25mph+, by all means, buy a motorcycle helmet.
but really, any helmet is better than no helmet.
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Shoulderpads
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On 9/9/2002
The Boz
wrote in from
(216.210.nnn.nnn)
Dan,
Look for lacrosse shoulder pads with hard plastic caps.
Try the following:
http://www.lacrossedigest.com
http://www.qclax.com
http://www.laxworld.com
Skate safe,
Tom Bosworth
P.S. For those looking for Pro-Tec replacements, Sierra Trading Post had Giro Semi's on sale for $20 last month. Might be worth a check.
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Road Rash
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On 9/9/2002
dan
wrote in from
(209.191.nnn.nnn)
Depends how serious you want to get. You can get full leathers, or body armor from crash pads. I've been using the prodesigned elbow pads, and they've slipped on me twice while racing.
But, I didn't have them sintched as tight as they would go. I had them set where they were comfortable for vert skating. So, now when I race, my leading elbow pad (left one for regular foot) is as tight as possible, without cutting off circulation. But, it' s not as comfortable. I usually unstrap it on the walk back up the hill then restrap it tight before racing.
I fell twice in practice this last weekend. And neither time did my elbow pad slide. So, it's been working. But, I did bruise my shoulder, and am seriously thinking about some shoulder pads. Anyone purchased those yet? I'm wondering which ones I should look into?
dan
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Reader Rash Request
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On 9/9/2002
Dr Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Anyone want to take on Beau's question? My thought is to add leathers but I defer to my readers.
drD
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Petition Site?
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On 9/9/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Adam, if you are reading this, what about setting up a petition site on NCDSA, with petitioners requesting Snell or ASTM-equivalent skate helmets. The petition can be sent to helmet-makers on a regular basis.
drD
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loss of skin
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On 9/9/2002
Beau Brown
wrote in from
(216.103.nnn.nnn)
Hey Doc,
As with most of us on this site, I have incurred a lot of "racers' tattoos". The latest a couple of months ago- all healed up but the identifying mark still there. ANYWAY.... all the knee & elbow pads out there right now are primarilly designed for 90 degree impact on the cup itself, not the 45 degree angles of falling forward so the pad rises up the arm. Resulting in our old friend, the road rash. Many years of martial arts taught me the slap & roll method that has kept me bone-break free, but this is painful and annoying! Got any suggestions on keeping those things in place? I'm tired of waking up stuck to the sheets!
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Helmet, a must
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On 9/9/2002
Leo
wrote in from
(216.72.nnn.nnn)
Just wanted to add my 0.02 in here.
yesterday in a local downhill event one of the riders fell after a 90º curve, hit the ground with a bieffe helmet, rolled, stood up, ran behind his moving skate, jump in again and managed to get a 2nd place after he was last on the run.
if he wasnt weairng a helmet i will be in his funerary serveis today.
leo
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helmet design, materials & testing
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On 9/9/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Maybe some petition of some kind could be created and signed
by thousands of skaters worldwide, copied, and sent to
every helmet manufacturer out there that demands they use
better materials or tell us exactly with what and how they
do their helmet testing and what were the results. I have a pro tec too, and while i can see it would prevent stitches, i don't believe for a minute it's been designed with any serious impact standard in mind.
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Cold Shoulder
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On 9/6/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Sk8Mecca,
Injuries that involve tendons are tricky and often slow to heal. The best advice I can give you is to see an orthopedist who specializes in sports medicine. If there is a sports team in your area, find out who they use. Be sure to get very concrete answers to each of the questions you've asked. Docs don't necessarily know what your exact concerns are, especially if you use moves or do sport activities that they don't usually encounter. Describe the motion of your slide, etc. In the meantime, if it hurts, don't land on it again. Seriously, reinjuring a healing body part is very bad juju. Best of luck.
drD
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1) Helmet Laws A Request for Ranking the Helmet Manufacturers
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On 9/6/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(165.247.nnn.nnn)
1) All respect to Dr Dave but he said, “Finally, if nothing else convinces you that mandatory helmets are a good idea, consider who pays for the millions of dollars of neurosurgery, rehab, nursing care, etc. for all those uninsured kids and adults who are taking the helmetless risk…” Guess that logic didn’t mean squat in Florida. They repealed the motorcycle helmet law 3-4 years ago.
2) By the way, we looked inside the nice new shiny Pro-Tec helmet KMG uses. Man that thing is rated for Water Sports only. What kind of BS is that? Pro-Tec or any other company that sells bunk, yea I said bunk, like that should be held liable for any injury sustained by a skateboarder using a helmet that they thought was rated for skateboard use, not water polo. If we are going to make helmet laws, lets start with the manufacturers first. The rating sticker should be painted on the outside of the helmet and not hidden inside it. Oh but that would be un-American to make corporation responsible for their actions. Anybody want to buy some Enron or Qwest stock I got for sale? Bought it real expensive and selling real cheap.
I’m looking to replace my toy Pro-Tec helmet and I have no idea what to get. I see Pro-Tec has some higher rated helmets but I can’t trust those guys. Can we get a breakdown on the helmet manufacturers (not the helmets themselves but the companies). I like the way Spats did so with the kneepad manufacturers on the Safety Equipment forum.
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Separated Shoulder
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On 9/6/2002
Sk8Mecca
wrote in from
(12.65.nnn.nnn)
Dr. Dave,
After 26 years of skating (concussions, broken bones, and alot of lost skin), I've finally suffered an injury that makes me question how long I can keep this up. In June, I separated my left shoulder. The ER doc got it back in place, and my orthopedic guy says no rotator(sic)cuff or nerve damage. But he wants me to stay off my stick (surf and skate) for 6 months. If it doesn't pop out before then, he says, it likely won't.
Finally, my questions- 1) 6 months is an eternity, does it take the soft tissue that long to heal? 2)Will I ever be able to slide using that arm again??? I'm paranoid as s*#t, which means further injury is inevitable...
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Into the time slip
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On 9/5/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
George,
My first thought would be that with a surge of adrenalin, you are getting a huge jolt of brain activity prior to hitting the ground. This lets you see the "big picture" very quickly and as a result everything else seems slowed. Interesting question. I'll see what else I can find for you, assuming that you are still compos mentis after more of these time-slowing crashes of yours. . . .
Sk8Safe, drD
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time?
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On 9/5/2002
george gould
wrote in from
(159.87.nnn.nnn)
i got a question for Dr. Dave, when i wipe out why sometimes does time seem to slow way down, don't get me wrong sometimes it happens so fast i don't think i remember, but sometimes it all goes slow motion. is there an explaination for this? thanks George.
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Head injuries
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On 9/5/2002
Dan Hughes
wrote in from
(162.78.nnn.nnn)
I say that head injuries are nothing to take lightly. Example, Girl at age 10 dies after practicing football, wearing a helmet.
Full story:
http://www.guardian.co.uk/uslatest/story/0,1282,-1992548,00.html
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dumb kids...
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On 9/4/2002 Patio Mendino
wrote in from
(66.168.nnn.nnn)
you can ask kids to wear a helmet, but like us Catholic school kids "the tighter you try to grip 'em, the more they squeeze out between your fingers".
Parents can accompany the kids to the skatepark.(they really should anyway, as this sport involves a good chance of injury. I saw a little girl get her ankle taken out last weekend at Vans, and they wanted to know where her mom was and she said "iiiIIII doooooonnnn't knoooooowwwwww" in a pitiful little 7yr old girl sob). but when the kids are street skating, it has to be up to them, along with positive adult reinforcement.
when I started racing mountain bikes, many were too cool to wear helmets. now, everybody does.
it's a curve, and I see helmets getting used alot more by skaters lately.
I had broken many bones from skating by the time I was 16. My mom suggested "for my own good" to stop skateboarding. I started surfing alot more, but a skateboard was always in the trunk of my car. I hit ramps and curbs and parking lots regularly. a few scraped knees needed intricate stories that I'm sure mom never believed. It's hard to hide a "hipper limp" from mom. but I wasn't "really" skateboarding(that much)...
I did my head injury at 21. If I had obeyed mom...doh!
P@io
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helmets etc
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On 9/4/2002 snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Well, if my tax dollars are actually doing some good,
and giving medical care for those who can't afford I'm
fine with that. At least there's some assurance,
thanks to your medical experience, that it's happening
and they're being used for their intended purpose.
I have skated for most of my life and the one sport
that made me wish i'd had a helmet available was snowboarding.
You're correct about that heel edge Patio. I hit the
back of my head so hard one time, it literally popped
the lenses out of my goggles. I could deal with spilling
forward, but you catch a heel edge and BAM! your just
looking up at the sky wincing before you know it. After
a few times of that, I just layed there and made snow
angels :-)
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helmets
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On 9/4/2002
Patio
wrote in from
(207.16.nnn.nnn)
anyone who stands/rides with a (snow)board strapped to their feet NEEDS a helmet. Catch your heel edge going downhill, your body becomes a "hammer" and your head will "nail" the ground. you gain more head smacking speed with the downhill added in...
George, I am so happy you were wearing a helmet.
slalom...you are close to the ground, when you begin to fall, you have already hit the ground.
mini ramps, more or less the same thing.
downhillin' you usually know when you're falling and have some reaction time.
Vert, same as above.
be safe, but have FUN!
P@io
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Decisions, Decisions
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On 9/3/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
I have a couple of arguments against the laissez-faire belief that everyone is entitled to make their own helmetless mistakes.
1. Adult judgment doesn't really get fully wired in until late teenage years or even later. That's the age when the frontal lobe - the major site of executive judgment - gets fully myelinated (and fully working). A kid's judgment is not the same as an adult's and shouldn't be treated as such, from both a neurological view and a parental view.
2. Most people who decide not to wear a helmet have absolutely no idea how badly a fall can damage a brain, even in new school moves. Just ask my friend and helmet posterboy Patio.
3. Finally, if nothing else convinces you that mandatory helmets are a good idea, consider who pays for the millions of dollars of neurosurgery, rehab, nursing care, etc. for all those uninsured kids and adults who are taking the helmetless risk. You do, from taxes that get taken from your paycheck. So, when someone decides not to wear a helmet, they are not only making decisions about their own health risks, they will spend your money in doing so.
Just a few late night thoughts for all you libertarians out there (g).
skateSafe drD
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