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| Q&A: Michael Brooke - Publisher, Concrete Wave Magazine (7141 Posts)
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Dave...
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On 2/11/2008
Steve C.
wrote in from
United States
(72.55.nnn.nnn)
Dave wrote:
Correct if I'm wrong, weren't the Zboys, and others like them, niche weekend warriors of sorts? Did they not affect the progression of skateboarding? Just a thought...
Yes they did affect the progression of skating. A long time ago. Good for them. But so much has happened since then. And it was happening in other places in that era as well. The Badlands? Florida? Hell it happened all over. The Zboys thing has been raised up to some sort of legend and there is so much more to the story of skateboarding in that era but you rarely hear about it. The same thing can be said for many eras.
and this
Tricks get momentary applause, style gets you a lifetime of respect!
Are you talking about the pants you wear? Skateboarding is about what you want out of it. Kids do tricks, with style, so does that get them a lifetime of respectful applause? Style is not everything, Skip is wrong, sorry. It may have been everything "back in the day" but the definition of style is so open can you define what "style" means? I doubt it. You may be able to spew out some convaluted idea but no solid definition.
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clothing
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On 2/11/2008
slim
wrote in from
United States
(32.153.nnn.nnn)
I figure people need to buy clothing from somewhere and I'd rather see that money go to skater owned and operated companies than the gap or levis or Nike or whatever. So I'm failing to see what's wrong with skater selling softgoods to the general public.
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niche
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On 2/11/2008
buddy rawls
wrote in from
United States
(128.158.nnn.nnn)
Slim, so your argument is that mainstream has put serious money back into the industry which benefits skateboarding and skaters and pros, therefore mainstream is not such a bad thing, and made it all possible.
Basically, then, the skateboard industry is banking on the nonskater to keep their ball rolling, so they can stay in business and keep the pros working 24/7 to advance the sport. To me, this means they are marketing a lifestyle or peer generated market, better described as a fad or a trend.
You brought up DLX, which really pumps support into your locale. Thats great to have such heavy hitting industry support, and close too. Did you know that DLX told a local shop in my locale to take a hike, and to buy DLX brands thru Eastern and Southshore? now this shop wont touch DLX with a 10ft pole. Thats where I live.
Hey if you all want to support skateboards that are populating over half of their catalogs with clothing, including jeans, then have at it. However, I won't be doing it.
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money
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On 2/11/2008
donald20
wrote in from
Germany
(84.62.nnn.nnn)
to carry on where dave left
skateboarding is not a sport to say so
skateboarding hss something to do with expressing yourself,with freedom...
most bigger companies have to invest money-which is ok and necessary-to stay on top.
but sometimes it only takes a certain character-or,coming back to what dave said- a certain group of people with a unique attitude/style/whatever.
some things can't be bought with money
and....
history often repeated itself,especially in skateboarding
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Niche
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On 2/11/2008 Dave
wrote in from
United States
(69.178.nnn.nnn)
Correct if I'm wrong, weren't the Zboys, and others like them, niche weekend warriors of sorts? Did they not affect the progression of skateboarding? Just a thought...
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$5b
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On 2/11/2008
slim
wrote in from
United States
(32.153.nnn.nnn)
Rawls, the thing is... It's that big money that has allowed the exponential rise in what is now possible on a skateboard. It funds the hundreds of pros who have no worries about working and therefore can devote 24/7 to getting better at skateboarding. That's why progression does not come from the niche weekend warrior crowd and that promoting it instead of the mainstream vanguard would slow the progression of skateboarding.
That's while I feel like I'm supporting the progression of skating when i give my money to deluxe instead of some niche company that doesn't t sponsor pros that are advancing the sport.
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Niche
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On 2/11/2008 Just another old guy
wrote in from
United States
(69.178.nnn.nnn)
Tricks get momentary applause, style gets you a lifetime of respect!
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niche
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On 2/11/2008
buddy rawls
wrote in from
United States
(128.158.nnn.nnn)
Slim wrote:" I may not be able to actually progress much in my skateboarding these days, but I'm not willing to turn my back on the best that skateboarding has to offer. And in my opinion, 'the best' isn't what we old farts or the kids who for some stupid reason are skipping straight to our niches of skateboarding without ever even trying to push their boundaries are doing. It's what guys like Tony Trujillo or Marc Johnson or sure, Danny Way and Bob Burnquist are doing. It's about what all the younger kids that are making their way up to that level are doing. I want to hold that up as the true spirit of skateboarding, something that i feel stoked to be associated with in some small way."
Slim, I dont get your angle. Niche skateboarding, is not against progression, its not about talking modern skating down. Niche skateboarding is about real skateboarding, unincumbered by a focused media that is funded by a $5B industry that is bank rolling profit thru the sell of soft goods and products to skaters (that dont skate), trying to figure out where to go next.
Slim always turns this into a progression, look at all the wonderful riding going on argument. I have yet to hear (read) anyone talk badly about progression or what is happening on boards nowadays. the whole niche argument has nothing to do with progression, riders that are pushing envelopes that once were unheard of, or talking down modern skateboarding. the niche argument is about possibilities, that are not seen in the media. what else is out there, what else has always been there.
Its sort of a "get with the program" call for the media. A $5B industry in which the sell of actual skateboards is but a smallest fraction of the picture. Manufacturers are trying to make decisions where to go, but the $5B industry is a hard chain to let go of, so they are sort of stuck.
Mainstreaming of skateboarding is the worst thing that could have ever happened. It conglomerized skateboarding into a business looking for profit. In doing so, it was quickly learned that hard goods are not profit generators. therefore changes have to be made to make it profitable.
1) reduce manufacturing cost, employ cookie cutting whereever possible, brand expansion to cover a wider base
2) introduce higher profit margin items: shoes, clothing, etc.
this is not skateboarding. This is mainstream marketing.
this is where returning skateboarding to an activity and to disciplines (separated or cross-linked, it really doesn't matter). This is what niche skateboarding is all about. Its not about locking down progression.
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jaded?
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On 2/10/2008
Steve C.
wrote in from
United States
(72.55.nnn.nnn)
I honestly think the worst element of modern skating is the guy who got back into skating recently and thinks we all need to bow down because he skated back in the day. Where were all of you in the 90s, when skating continued to progress? It is also the era that spawned the second coming of parks. We skated the street in the 90s, and we skated pools and ramps and vert, down hills, you name it. Modern skating is based on the ground work laid in this era just as much as back in the 70s or 80s. And kids today continue to push the envelope. Most of the old school haters have way less skills than most of the kids coming up these days. I know 15 and 16 year old kids who rip so much harder than "I skated at (insert 70s skate park name here)" guy will ever. If you are old and still skate find your place. And enjoy it. People need to stop criticizing where skteboarding is headed because most people are not making it happen. Skating is fun. Talking SHI* about it makes you a jack a s s. People need to get over themselves. I have been washed up for years and loving it.
Am I Jaded? No more than most of the guys my age or older. The only difference between me and a lot of older guys is I skate and try not to complain about what other people do when skating. I get stoked instead of trying to act like somehow my skateboarding experience is more "correct" than other people. I am stoked to skate and at 37 I still skate, I can do a kick flip, can you? Oh I guess that is not cool because I should just skate bowls and do a fronstside slash and never learn anything else. The "old school" needs to take some classes at the university and get up to date. Maybe most of you "old schoolers" could learn something from the kids today. Or guys like Mark Gonzales who continnues to progress even though he is old. And Danny and Bob. Maybe you should respect skaters like Pat Duffy and Eric Kopsten who pushed the envelope through the 90s. Do this and give respect to the dogtown boys, and the badlanders, the Florida crews, the Oregon and Washington scenes that gave us Dreamland and Grindline, the 80s vert scene, the 90s skate scene. So you skated in the 70s? Who really cares, because skating is a continuous activity. It did not end because you stopped skating. You just missed out on what was happening. Open your eyes.
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fun vs. cool
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On 2/10/2008
slim
wrote in from
United States
(76.231.nnn.nnn)
Rich, no disrespect, but your statement was a perfect example of what I was talking about. I don't know why a lot of old guys set up a "just have fun," vs. "look cool and impress others" dichotomy. I think it's a misunderstanding of why most skaters push themselves. Maybe it's a reflection of age and one's normal work environment where we've been conditioned by square society to put in effort to be recognized by others (customers, bosses) and be rewarded by them. Maybe we've forgotten what it's like to put in effort simply to prove something to OURSELVES and doing so regardless of what response it will get from other people!
If it's true that you were trying to learn new tricks to impress others, then i don't blame you for giving up on that when you started to get hurt. Trying to impress others is not a very good reason to risk injury. But I don't think that's why most skateboarders try to progress. They do it because they like the challenge and like pushing themselves. This, for most of us, is indeed worth risking injury. And it can be much more rewarding than just having "fun." At least that's what I've learned from skateboarding and that's the attitude I see reflected in the guys I skate with. And I'm nearly certain that fame, money, and looking "cool" has little to do with why current "pros," chuck themselves down big stair sets and the like. The money isn't good enough for it to be a big motivator. They do it because they have an internal need to progress in their skateboarding. If they need other people's approval, it's only so they can stay 'pro' and keep the freedom that allows them to get out there and feed their skateboarding need everyday. But the main drive comes from within.
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pauliwog
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On 2/10/2008 hc
wrote in from
United States
(71.132.nnn.nnn)
hey Pauliwog, dig your event last year,
jams are the best, you are right, slalom racing is a lot of sitting around,
I think Cat did like 25 runs at your event last year!!
LaCosta was cool back in the day, that street was wide enough for 2 race course and a practice course, hard to find a street like that though...
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Having Fun?
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On 2/10/2008
Rich Sayers
wrote in from
United States
(67.174.nnn.nnn)
Skateboarding started as a way to have fun. I got back into skating at 40 years old to have fun. When concern about looking rad and learning new tricks to impress others started taking over in my mind, the fun went away and the injuries increased. Then I decided to not worry about that and just have fun.
Of course at my age (now 45) the additional benefits include staying young at heart and keeping in shape.
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niche
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On 2/10/2008
slim
wrote in from
United States
(76.231.nnn.nnn)
I don't know why exactly, but I'm kind of over "niche" skateboarding. I used to want to support different kinds of skateboarding and all the small boutique brands and kind of ignore the mainstream skateboard scene as something that was just not for me anymore. But recently I think I've tired of the attitudes I hear from participants in the "niche" scene and "niche" industry. It's all so negative and so critical and has also grown stale and uninspiring.
All the "well, back in the 70s it was so much better because...," righteousness or the "i'm proud i can't ollie," aversion to actually improving and opening up new lines, or the "i need a constant stream of new engineering breakthroughs and fresh gear" over-consumerism, to the "it's just about the glide," over-contentedness, to all the criticism of what the kids and pros today are doing, to criticism of the skateboard industry (which no one seems to want to admit is basically just a bunch of skateboarders having fun pushing the boundaries of skateboarding and doing business to keep that going)... All that stuff makes me want to disassociate myself from the niche! None of that stuff represents skateboarding to me. To me skateboarding has always been about progression - be it newer moves or new terrain possibilities. There isn't much "new" or "better" in niche skateboarding right now to me and there's way to much of a grumpy old man attitude. I don't want to be "that guy."
I may not be able to actually progress much in my skateboarding these days, but I'm not willing to turn my back on the best that skateboarding has to offer. And in my opinion, 'the best' isn't what we old farts or the kids who for some stupid reason are skipping straight to our niches of skateboarding without ever even trying to push their boundaries are doing. It's what guys like Tony Trujillo or Marc Johnson or sure, Danny Way and Bob Burnquist are doing. It's about what all the younger kids that are making their way up to that level are doing. I want to hold that up as the true spirit of skateboarding, something that i feel stoked to be associated with in some small way.
I'm also losing interest in the 'boutique' brands, most of which are just middlemen sitting in their living rooms and phoning up real manufacturers to have some products made with their names on it in some sort of design old farts are convinced are 'better' than the state of the art skateboard gear used by today's pros to do things a hundred times harder than anything that will ever be done on the boutique gear. I've gone back to wanting to support companies that are actually making their own products, and there are "mainstream" companies that do just that. Back to supporting companies who put more focus on what is being done on their gear by their skaters, than on focusing on the gear itself. (after all, it is "skateboarding" and not "skateboard buying or manufacturing," that we are supposed to care about isn't it?)
Sure, I may still ride slalom on my fancy setup or bomb hills and maybe even race and i certainly see the fun in just pushing around the neighborhood on my cruiser, but i'm also focusing more on skatepark skating and getting into as much modern street skating as a guy in his 32nd year of skateboarding can do. And i'm doing so on a 'mainstream' skateboard deck, wheels, and trucks that yes, you'll see advertised in thrasher. But at least it's all made inhouse by a local company that spends money supporting talented skateboarders so they can get out there and push the boundaries of the art and inspire me again and again with what is possible to do on a skateboard. Something just feels right about that to me right now.
What's the point in posting all this? Certainly not to convince any of you to change your ways. Hey, whatever gets you through the day is fine with me. I just thought I'd present an alternative in case there is someone out there who felt similarly, but thought they were the only one
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Steve C, Niche's, Rules, Slalom and Deep Thoughts
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On 2/9/2008
Paul(Howard)iwog
wrote in from
United States
(65.122.nnn.nnn)
Steve, you bring up some great points, many of which I've been pushing for awhile. As a primarily slalom skater/racer(?) you are DEAD-ON CORRECT on the slalom topic!
I do slalom more than any other type of skating because I just get a fire in my gut for it, and love the feeling I get. However, I have burned out somewhat on slalom "racing" for all the rules, waiting for my turn to ride, etc plus if you're going to travel to a big race, it is by far the most cost-inefficient way to go skateboarding. That's why I've taken the initiative here in the Northwest to put on the Cascade Slalom Association race season opening event every year and make it a big BBQ event(and NOT a real race) with 2 lanes, one setup big and open and the other more techy and allow a timer to be put on only one lane(and I don't really encourage that single timer either for that matter). That way more people can show up and actually RIDE their skateboards instead of waiting around all day and those who just "have-to" race can do it in one lane and let everyone more interested in riding the cones go do that.
Also, I set the "big" course open enough that newbies, longboarders, downhillers, etc can make it easily but the experienced GS riders can hammer it hard and fast. Again, as you mentioned indirectly - so that it won't be a "niche" event for "slalom'ers" only. I bring extra slalom "loaner" setups but still setup the big course so almost any setup will make it through OK. Generally, I get a pretty good turn out and people walk away happy and stomachs full of BBQ.
Real races with rules for consistency is good and should exist, but I wish there were more fun slalom goof-off events like mine where actually RIDING is the focus. "Winning" - What is that? It's cool, it feels good, I'm completely stoked that I had "my" winning season in the Northwest a few years ago and podiumed at some big races while I was in the B Class on the "big" level(which I have returned to) and I really would'nt easily trade it or give it away since I worked hard to get to that level, But it's not everything, and to some people it's not anything. Therein lies the beauty of the slalom BBQ, it's a fun ride for those who want a fun ride, and you can be competitive and race your competitive peers and walk away knowing you put out your best.
OK, so I feel a pointless meandering rant forming somewhere in my mind like a storm brewing so I'll stop here. All this rain we've had, I have to skate vicariously on the keyboard. Schlater - Paul
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skateboarding
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On 2/8/2008
Steve C.
wrote in from
United States
(72.55.nnn.nnn)
There is a scene in Star Wars Episode 4 where Tarkin confronts Princess Leah. her quote is great, "The more you tighten your grip, Tarkin, the more star systems will slip through your fingers." This is true about skating. The more people try to impose what skatebaording is, what it is about, what makes it cool, the more the reality slips away. Skateboarding, rolling on a skateboard and actually doing it is cool. I don't care what you are doing. If you have fun and actually skate that is so awesome. Even if it differs from what others do. I did it today. Skateboarded. How cool is that.
And I think that some of the larger media outlets reflect it. I think too often all the mags get lumped together as being one dimesional and that is not really the case. There are some mags that reflect much more than street skating(besides CW) but never really get any credit for it. The change is happening even if people think it isn't. Not in all the media sources but it is there. The main things that is ignored is racing, but let's face it, racing is not really something that really large amounts of people are interested in. In fact, most skaters like skating because there are no rules. And DH and slalom have a LOT of rules. Maybe that is why it is so "niche"(small). Just my perspective.
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there's a whiff of change...
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On 2/8/2008
Michael Brooke
wrote in from
Canada
(67.70.nnn.nnn)
I am quite confident that change is a brewin'
In fact, I know it is...because SOME of the big guys are freaking out trying to figure out what to do next...they actually KNOW what to do...but pulling the trigger is a little bit harder than it was say 15 years ago...or 10 years ago...or 5 years ago.
Then again, it depends on what your definition of freaking out is...any port in a storm...or do you really want to add something to skateboarding as opposed to trying to take market share?
Again, I go back to basics (bring out the Gentlemen's Agreement, Igor....
You remember that meeting back all those years ago...when some in the industry laid down what needed to be done...
ah, here it is...JANUARY 1 9 9 4
14 years ago!!!
"We must encourage some changes. Modern street skating is rad but we
must add to it. Just think if we could have the street scene of today PLUS
the mini ramp scene from 89 PLUS the vert scene from 86 PLUS the
street scene from 85 PLUS the freestyle scene of 81 PLUS the pools and
park scene from the 70's etc etc . With skateboarding ten times a big,
pros could earn ten times as much money and companies make money. If
we want those days back we need to open our minds and not limit
skateboarding. That's what skateboarding was all about when we started.
There were no rules, it just mattered that you were doing it and having
fun."
************************** *****************
Buddy Rawls for President!
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niche skateboarding
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On 2/8/2008
buddy rawls
wrote in from
United States
(128.158.nnn.nnn)
I really think niche skateboarding needs to be defined as real skateboarding. Its not about soft goods, its not about brands, its not about pros, its not about whats selling in the $5B market (mostly funded by nonskaters and softgoods). Its about the act of skateboarding. You can break it down into disciplines, which is what its all about. One is not better than the other, its simply skateboarding.
A- I skate
B- Cool, I skate too.
B- What kind of skating do you do?
A- I am into street skating
B- Yeah, me too, but I also like bowls, especially cement coping
C- Cement coping is way out of my league, I just cruise around
A- B- Hey, its all good.
This is what skateboarding is all about. the disciplines are essentially the niche groups. It all feeds into a larger overall scene. On the surface the "larger overall scene" should be refelected in the media, but its not. this is the problem. There is too much control, too much agenda, too much drive for profit and manufacturing cost.
CW gets knocked for watering down too much. Its not real skating, etc etc. Truth is, it is real skating. Its more real than anything else, because its about the activity, not the attitude.
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Toronto
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On 2/7/2008 The Hawk
wrote in from
United States
(68.108.nnn.nnn)
Nobody more loved than the Hawk in Toronto
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IYPVyJwzerM
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The street
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On 2/6/2008
Steve C.
wrote in from
United States
(72.55.nnn.nnn)
That's right buddy. I know guys in their mid/late thirties who are not mainstream and jump down stairs and stuff. There are niches within niches to. How about tranny skaters who skate small tranny versus vert? The more you try to classify it the less sense it all makes. Its skating. When will people figure that out?
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niche skateboarding
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On 2/6/2008
buddy rawls
wrote in from
United States
(128.158.nnn.nnn)
Street Skating is also niche. It just happens to be so engrained in mainstream that it is overlooked. What I am getting at is that there are lots of street skaters "real skaters who prefer street skating" that aren't part of the mainstream. In this case, street skating is also a niche.
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niche skateboarding...
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On 2/5/2008
Michael Brooke
wrote in from
Canada
(67.70.nnn.nnn)
Niche?
it came from my own head....I think!
I am not sure why I started, but I am pretty sure I wasn't the first...
I guess I needed to lump (lord, how I hate that word) all the other skate disciplines together...so, I called them niche.
Longboarding, slalom, pools, ditches, speedboarding, freestyle, cruising, parks... it's all good
so while street dominates there are riches in the niches...
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Nichski
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On 2/4/2008 Xskate
wrote in from
United States
(67.100.nnn.nnn)
MB
I have seen you use the term "Niche Skateboarding" ofton, Me and my friend were debating where this term came from, can you help settle the argument?
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get the post here
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On 2/3/2008
Michael Brooke
wrote in from
Canada
(67.70.nnn.nnn)
http://www.divshare.com/download/3662488-2a1
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new link to post...
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On 2/3/2008
Michael Brooke
wrote in from
Canada
(67.70.nnn.nnn)
this is a new link to the seminar at Surf Expo
enjoy!
http://www.divshare.com/download/3662488-2a1
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Michael
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On 2/2/2008 Cat
wrote in from
United States
(69.109.nnn.nnn)
I tried to download the Surf Expo seminar...
I got, "The download limit has been reached for this file."
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