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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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Um...Thailand?
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On 6/9/2006 Andrea
wrote in from
Thailand
(216.13.nnn.nnn)
How puzzling...I'm not sure why I am listed as hailing from Thailand, but I'll figure it out (not that I would argue with being relocated!). I am from Canada...sorry to disappoint!
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Intro
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On 6/9/2006
Andrea
wrote in from
Thailand
(216.13.nnn.nnn)
I’ve been lurking here for a while, soaking up the fine info and the inspiration, so I thought I would say hello. Erin kindly set up my Big Bug into a pumping machine, and I have been making it out for the occasional cray fun ride with her around the Vancouver seawall.
This week I gleefully discovered that I can fit a quick pump into my commute. My carpool drives 30 km south from Vancouver, and I can jump out finish off the journey on my board. The route is smooth, prairie-flat asphalt for a quick 5 km each way before and after work, swerving to avoid the occasional stray rooster or tractor. Awesome riding, and the two lane road is empty but for one or two passing vehicles and the odd cyclist. Weather and workload permitting, I hope to fit a ride in as often as possible.
Thanks for all the posts on technique that have helped speed up the learning curve for a beginning LDPer!
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time well spent
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Well done Derek!
I especially enjoy the bushing tower!
I'm glad to see someone is taking this skate jabber seriously!
Btw, I also had some good experiences a while back pumping my Landy DH, with R2's and gummies....well that is until I developed some sort of muscle pull in my quad....but hey, it was fun pumping past my buddy and his Landy Evo, Jim Z's and flywheels.
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more pics
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
and here's the corrected speedvents pic
and here's a really cool tower that i made from my carver bushings. (time well spent, no doubt.)
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community board
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
okay- here's a pic of a board that i KNOW is set up right :)
this board is made up of parts from all over the place. i used james' landyachtz dh deck, erin's holey front truck, and my 97mm flywheels. i'm experimenting with some different setups for the mile, and this one is pretty interesting. it's certainly a heavy board, although i'm not sure that's such a bad thing. pumping this setup zapped my energy pretty quickly, but it also reached some quick flatland pump speeds without feeling maxed out.
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Cardio Pumping
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On 6/8/2006
G-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
I wore the pulse monitor I use for road cycling to practice slalom one day. I set a 50 cone course on a nearly flat pitch of really nice new asphalt. there was a straight section in to build some speed, then wider and irregularly spaced stuff for the rest. I'd be at resting of about 60, do the course, and i'd be at 150 at the other end. It was at the hight of cycling season when I'd be doing 120 miles a week, and I had decent baseline cardio fitness, but yeah, full on "TTB" pumping is a lot of work...
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sprint & endurance
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
On the topic of long distance vs. short distance pump, the longest GS course I've run was about 1 minute 30 seconds average (Hood River) and the biggest long distance pump course I skated was 3 hours 20 minutes (Haul Ash), of almost continuous pumping. To keep distances up, I need to vacillate between the power of long, smooth, powerful interconnected slalom pumps (but more like a SuperGS, considering the wheelbase and length of stride) and then 80%-effort maintenance pumps, which minimize body movement.
For me at least, pumps using the whole body have to be carefully interspersed when acceleration is needed, on long trail rides. I can usually keep those going for a few minutes at a time, then fall back into a less demanding pump, and back again. In fact just overhearing Richy at Hood when he was talking with Lynn Kramer about centering and powering from the back and using the front only to turn, had a lot of influence on how I now shift my "front wiggle" power toward the rear of the deck -- which is still a great technique for maintaining existing momentum, and requires a lot less energy investment than the compress/uncompressing pumps.
Have definately noted the speed skaters (inline) techniques over the last few years of longboarding the Seattle distance events - those guys always take the head of the pack, and the fastest clock 26 miles in under 90 minutes!
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airborne babes
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Actually I gotta credit Michael Dong with that description, in one of our practices he was talking about powering - both throwing the arms behind and downward on the compression, then 'throwing the baby' on the decompress ;-) Amazing to see it in action.
**note: no babies were harmed in the creation or execution of this technique
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Haha.
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
"Throwing the baby".... What a perfect description.
I'll tell Richy that the next time I see him. One of our local DC guys does that too. Both arms up on the toeside turns. It's fast for sure.
I've seen all the fast guys at races the past few years, and while Mollica and Mitchell are just stupid, blazing fast, I don't think anyone exhibits such pure physical power as Richy Carrasco.
Watching that video, if you know what you're looking for, is a master class in how to read a course, where to power it up, and where to cruise.
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Pumping...
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
Ever ice skated? rollerbladed? Rollerskated? tacked a sailboat to windward?
That's what pumping is, in effect. you're vectoring a thrust load against a sliding (rolling) thing. A wedge as it were. and you're alternating directions since unlike wind, you can only produce it in a given direction for so long.
When you're travelling down the bike path ahve you ever been passed by a talented 5 wheel inline skater with good form? each stroke (pump) is like 20 feet long. They're going 20 on the flats.
Using the legs, compressing and extending, and combined with the arms, which are adding to weight transfer makes real power. It's best harnessed by a deck with some flex, but not too much.
I suggest low camber, maybe 3/8-3/4", and which is flexed to not quite flat when you're in stance.
The point of maximum flex is right as you SNAP the board through the turn from toeside to heelside. there's no wiggle. It's a smooth, coordinated, graceful motion.
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geezers richy link
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
thanks for the Richy vid! I just have one very short clip of him ripping down Hood GS last year -- on his max pumps he's got this "throwing the baby" arm movement where both hands go UP, as he's completely reached the unweighting point. its an incredible burst of power, and fun to play with on the flats -- though I can only do those for a little while, then I'm cooked!!
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bask askwerds
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On 6/8/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
lol! i'm so used to hearing that question about CX's that it didn't even occur to look over dereks pic more closely. there's a couple other *correctly* mounted CX's even farther down on this same page! nice one D ;-)
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bass ackwards
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
AW FOOEY!
i'm such a freakin' idiot!
it IS backwards. and i can't even use the excuse that it's a mirror image...
i mounted it, took pics, rode it, and realized it was wrong. then i remounted it, and took more pics, then posted the wrong pic. Doh!
Obviously, i've got a thing or two to learn about efficiency of motion, both on and off the board. :)
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backward truck
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On 6/8/2006 hc
wrote in from
United States
(168.149.nnn.nnn)
i think its backward, no?
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Richy Carrasco...
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On 6/8/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(65.127.nnn.nnn)
Has a MONSTER pump.
http://www.sk8kings.com/new/video/RichyCarrascoSlalomRacing.htm
To answer some questions, regarding "swing" vs. "twist", in slalom the prevailing pump form (which granted, combines a racing line around cones with generating power OR braking)uses the entire body and board setup. Watch Richy in action and it'll be immediately apparent.
The "twist" essentially is pushing the nose one way and tail the other. With a lot of steering in both ends, it generates power.
At a slalom event that used to be held in MD, The Gathering, the last day used to end with the uphill pump race. There was a loop road, maybe a 1/3 of a mile around. We'd start at the high point, bomb the downhill, and as speed tapered off, would start pumping to build as much speed as possible on the flat. The road would gradually transition from flat to up hill, and the big, arm-y, swinging power pump style would devolve to the "anything that can make me go" style. It's really hard to configure a setup that can generate useful boost both at 25 mph and at 2 mph.
It turned out that a tiny, flat 70's deck with about a 16" wheelbase and a ton of front steer usually worked where it mattered, which was ekeing out another agonizing 10' at the end when everyone was *really* struggling.
I've done some flatland pumping for fun on a local bike path, and I usually ride an insect deck that's about 34" with the trucks all the way at the ends. I use a PVD rear and an RTX or Indy front. It's my regular GS racing setup with more steering. I use the biggest wheels I can get under it on my best bearings. Usually Oust 7s.
I do a ton of 8mm axle conversions on trucks for slalom racers who are looking for grip, but serious pumpers would benefit from the reduced drag the better alignment provides. Reducing rolling resistance is huge while flatland pumping.
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Push vs Pull
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
In my recent experiments with my new pavedwave deck I am observing that a lot of my pump technique has centred around creating linked turns that cause the wheels to pull the board forward. It would seem that the board is being wiggled at various speeds by the legs to create this wheel pulling effect.
On re-reading Dan Gesmer's description of pumping I realized that in talking about weighting and unweighting and referring to the circular motion of the abdomen driving the pump rather than the power of the legs he was explaining how this created a centrifugal force that resulted in the board being pushed (rather than pulled).
I tried this method more pointedly than I had before and found that though it seemed to be working for me it didn't feel as intuitive as powering the turns with my legs. Perhaps it is inexperience or a lack of required strength but the variety of deck manipulations that led to the board moving forward seem easier to me than the weighting/unweighting method that Dan uses.
On an incline I prefer the quick deck wiggle that James refers to and Geezer also mentions in order to generate speed and go up hill. I definitely use my legs and feet to power this movement. For longer sustained higher speed flats I prefer mixing the circular motion with a figure 8 type motion that Derek talked about in his post below. But again these movements often seem to be generated more from the legs and not so much from the abdomen.
As for arm movements it seems that there is a variety of motions that can assist the pump from the close-in quick movements during the uphill "wiggle' to the wider slalom type swings for long pumps and higher speeds.
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new CX vs old CX
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On 6/8/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I recently mounted a new set of CX's on my new pavedwave board. The new trucks have a more shiny finish and sit on a similarly shiny silver baseplate rather than the former black baseplate. Generally these trucks function in the same way as the older model however I was noticing that I couldn't get the hanger as loose as on the other version. Is it possible that the new Carver CX's are using a shorter kingpin? Anyone else noticed this difference?
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CX?
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On 6/8/2006 G7enn
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(80.229.nnn.nnn)
I did wonder if it was the new Carver but I thought they were 'just' a standard truck with the axle moved back several inches to give a cheaper version of the tippy feel you get from the old complex Carvers (the only ones i've tried). Surely the Pivot is still towards the nose of the board. That photo really looks like an Indy or similar mounted backwards. I can even see the reflection of the bushings in the shiny deck...
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zogs wild fatboy
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On 6/8/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Before your images fall off the 'front page' Zogs, thats one sick lookin' little kokopelli pumper, one of the most rad paint jobs I've seen yet! with the double split-fires no less... got some ride impressions soon i hope!
and G7enn thats an often and understandably asked question about the carverCX, its mounted right! on their latest models they even burn a directional arrow/note into the hangar so that people mount them correctly. got more pics of those here
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g-x pump tech's
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On 6/8/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
yeah, I feel that I'm always switching between the two pumps or something like it, where swinging's best for acceleration or long, deep pumps that maintain a fast clip. I think its why my slalom buddies have an initial impression that distance stuff is kinda nuts or requires marathon stamina, because they can't imagine keeping that kind of pump up (and I can't either!)
That's where I've found switching between that, and centering more over the rear and steering with the nose a.k.a. the "deck wiggle / twist" comes in handy for maintaining an already fast momentum with less physical investment. The other thing I like with that pump is pouring a lot of energy into the rear for charging up a hill. Geezer -- its cool to hear your last comment about the slalomers milestone, I learned so much last winter isolating pump technique with cyber. it doesn't hold up to the adrenaline of screaming down a hill, but it sure gets your head wrapped around this stuff!
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Speedvent photo
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On 6/8/2006 G7enn
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(80.229.nnn.nnn)
Is that truck on backwards or is there more to these pumping specific setups than I realised?...
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technique
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On 6/8/2006 derek
wrote in from
United States
(24.16.nnn.nnn)
hey geezer-
thanks for the insights there! dividing technique into categories of twisting and swinging is a great way to look at it. i can totally see what you mean there. i'm looking forward to getting out for a ride and exploring those ideas.
i've been thinking of the two approaches in terms of having a single pivot point or a double pivot point, or as moving the body in a circular motion vs. figure 8's. it's helpful to me to find new ways to define this stuff. one of the things i like about your idea is that it gives a clear and simple visual to check in with on a ride.
thanks again!
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pump technique questions
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On 6/7/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Gezzer X, thanks for your comments about the styles of pumping. Given that as a newb pumper I am in the twist camp, I would appreciate a little more explanation about what you describe as the swing (sounding like dance class here ;-) ).
In terms of incorporating the whole body in the pump motion would you also say that more of the board is used as well? In other words, the whole board is pumped rather than just the front of the deck being wiggled in quick motions?
And when you describe the swing style as using arm motion what exactly do you mean by that? Is it a wide motion that lends momentum and power to the pump that you are referring to?
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Pumping form
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On 6/7/2006
Geezer-X
wrote in from
United States
(63.138.nnn.nnn)
I've been following the growing attention to pumping as a viable means for covering distance. In the late 70's I traveled around town on slalom boards pushing and jogging (before it was "skogging") and pumping.
I just watched the video clip a few posts down, and feel compelled to comment. Primarily, pumping style can fall into 2 camps: the "twist" and the "swing".
The twist uses a lot of front steer, and can generate a little power even at very slow speeds. If you're trying to pump to speed from zero, or pump up a steep hill, it feels natural and it works.
The swing (for lack of a better term) uses the whole body, particularly the arms, and works best on a stiffer board with less steering. It's cabable of much higher speeds, as each "stroke" covers much more ground.
Have a look at some slalom videos. Kenny Mollica probably still has all his race videos from 2001-2005 for sale, and they're a master class in how to pump effectively. Learn both ways. having watched many slalom newbies progress in talent, it's always a milestone when they abandon the twist and start using their whole body for propulsion.
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speedvents - how heavy?
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On 6/7/2006 Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Hey Derek, how do the Speed Vents compare in weight to the Avilas? I am thinking that given the design of their core the SV's are likely to be significantly lighter than their older cousins the monster Avilas.
Nice wedging btw.
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How to Pump