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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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Dolphin pumps
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On 10/11/2006 PSR
wrote in from
United States
(69.165.nnn.nnn)
On another webpage, promoting the Carving aspect of Snowboarding, one guy chimed in on how to better do aggressive turns in soft, natural snow. I believe his comparison with dolphins, where the board dives into the snow at the turn's apex, and gets airborne between turns using the deck's energy-return flex was very apt. Actually, I think he used the comparison on porpoise! ;-)
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cross training
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On 10/11/2006 derek
wrote in from
(67.170.nnn.nnn)
hey tarin-
i've been training for the seattle marathon next month, so i've been doing a bunch of running. i'm also getting started on a winter swimming routine, with the hopes of doing some triathlons late next summer. i think biking has lots of lessons to offer pumpers in terms of choosing efficient gears and cadence and stuff like that too.
i think even sports like golf or tennis or baseball can be applied to pumping a skateboard. hitting the ball well is all about dropping your center of balance into the ground at the appropriate time.
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different seasons, different sports
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On 10/11/2006
tarin
wrote in from
(82.143.nnn.nnn)
hey derek, what other sports do you do at different times of the year? i know you're into aikido but dont know what else. me, i swim laps, and never so much as in the summertime.
anyone else do sports that they feel are similar to skating and pumping?
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dolphin pump
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On 10/11/2006
derek
wrote in from
(67.170.nnn.nnn)
hey al-
nice work on the dolphin stuff there. that's some very cool stuff to read. I've been studying the same kind of stuff with running and swimming. the book "chi running" by danny dreyer explores efficient running motion, and the website totalimmersion.net is a great resource for learning all about "becoming slippery" and how to swim like a fish. the philosophy for both of these can easily be transferred over to pumping a skateboard or any other sport.
i'm a fan of having different sports for different seasons, and i think that exploring these other motions in the winter has led to some big insights when i step back on the board in february or march.
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More on pump propulsion and animal comparisons
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On 10/11/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
(200.88.nnn.nnn)
PSR,
You are correct in all of your analysis of pump propulsion, and each element,ie. deck flex, torso and arm motion and a good return to center all work together for efficient skate pumping. I think that to increase efficiency we need to consider all of these characteristics and try to improve each one. Why I was so interested in comparisons to nature, especially dolphins and fish, is that we might be able to learn EVEN MORE, so as to get the most efficient set-up possible. We shouldn't try to 'copy' the dolphin in any way, because we are not likely to be pumping below the ocean any time soon. But to TRANSLATE dolphin technique and bio mechanics into skate technique and equipment, might be beneficial. I think the next advances in skate pumping equipment and technique might come from such comparisons and analysis. It's worth a closer look.
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Dolphin pumps
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On 10/9/2006 PSR
wrote in from
United States
(69.165.nnn.nnn)
Your trucks don't have springs, but some of mine DO! Seismics... You can adjust EACH Corner of the platform you're standing on to a tension that matches the power input you intend to input. Springs return the truck to 'near' center every turn.
Many of my 'normal' trucks use either Stimulators (which I'm quite aware I brought back into the public's eye) or Radikals for lower bushings, which in effect create a small amount of springing action as they return to center.
How many of you get 'light footed' on the cross-over from turn to turn? If you Retract at one turn's end, and Press on the next, will you gain energy from your board's camber/flex while using the same amount of effort? Do foot-blocks help? What about arm movement, or torso stretch across and/or up/down while pumping; Does that group of motions contribute to your momentum?
We're not as efficient as our smarter fellow earthlings, the Dolphins, even in our own hand/machine made environs, at motoring ourselves along. Heed what you see in nature, just don't expect to be able to copy it. ;-)
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More on dolphin 'pump' techniques
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On 10/9/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
(200.88.nnn.nnn)
Taking a closer look at how a dolphin propels itself in water we can see that the main thrust is performed by the flukes of the tail, which move up and down in syncronized harmony with its body. What's interesting, and might have some significance for skate pumping, is that the dolphin doesn't use equal strokes, where equal force would be used in both the up stroke and the down stroke. Rather, the power is drawn from the up stroke only and the downstroke is basically a rest. The tail is provided with a mechanism to enhance this movement, and the largest muscles are on the upper portion of the tail, which powerfully pull the flukes upward. Also, there is very condensed blubber in the upper part of the tail, which is highly compressed during the upstroke. The compressed blubber acts like a monstrous skate bushing and springs the fluke downwards without using significant energy, thus allowing the dolphin to generally rest on this downward stroke. On the bottom half of the tail there are also spring-like legiments and smaller muscles which also aid in the downstroke.
So, what does this have to do with skate pumping? In pumping most of us right-handers also produce most of the thrust on the rear truck, and also using the 'up-stroke', that is, if we can be compared to dolphins. Pushing with our rear toe downward translates into pushing with our toes upwards if we are lying on our belly as dolphins do. However, the difference between us and dolphins is that our skates are pretty evenly balenced on both sides, and the trucks really dont have a mechanism to spring the hanger all the way back ..past the 'return to center', to provide us a rest. If we were to try to imitate the dophins style we would probably need a large spring attached to the left hand side of the deck, which in turn would be attached to the hanger.Or else maybe we might use a modified Seismic with a compression spring on the right side and an expansion spring on the left. Anyway, these are ideas that can be generated through studying nature! Now...if I can only get some extra time to try this dolphin theory out!
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Startin
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On 10/8/2006
Alan
wrote in from
United States
(24.161.nnn.nnn)
Haha, oh my gosh, can't believe how much good trucks make a difference. Got some carver cx's, with the risers it a lot higher than normal, but since I don't need to push except to start its awesome. I don't know if its my technique or anything but the lower part of my calves seems to be the area that being exercised the most. I also can't seem to be able to go long distances yet since my lead leg calf gets tired, might just be since I'm out of shape. I was wondering if anyone had that sorta problem, I guess, and how they got past it to really get the pump going.
Regardless, having so much fun pumping, even though right now I could push a longer distance right now pumping just has that awesome groove even though I have next to no idea what I'm doing, but it works!
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LD pump 'propulsion'
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On 10/7/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
(200.88.nnn.nnn)
Hi folks! It's been a while. I'm still studying LD pumping methods and have recently done a bit of study in various area's of bio and mechanical locomotion, trying to better understand the basics of the pump motion. Really, it's hard to believe how primitive pump locomotion is, one example being a fish or dolphin that basically 'pumps' in three dimensions through the water. A tuna, while swimming can pump up to about 50k per hour and a dolphin about 40k. (almost as fast as JP!!;) Birds when flying are also 'pumping'.. through the air...so the motion is anything but new! Anyway, some of you pump enthusiasts might want to visit some of these other sights on the web, to get a better idea of the way that nature uses pump locomotion, and I think you'll find it is a fundemental part of almost all biological movement. Some sites/links on bird flight, and self propelled, fish inspired submarines,robots etc..can be found at: http://forum.ornithopter.org/index.php? And on dolphin bio mechanics at: http://biomechanics.bio.uci.edu/_html/nh_biomech/dolphin_spring/dolphin.htm And if you're interested in some nasty scientific details, mesurements etc..... look at "swimming kinematics of juvenile kawaka tuna at: http://jeb.biologists.org/cgi/reprint/203/20/3103.pdf#search=%22skeleton%20of%20a%20tuna%22 You might also want to know that the pump motion should play a big part in the future of transportation, in general, in probably the next 25-50 years as many countries and scientists are working hard to incorporate the flexible and fluid pump motion to create and save energy (tidal power), propel ships ('whale tail propellers'), create robotic fish and dolphins, develope fin powered submarines and bird type, flexible airplanes. Also, there are some credible statistics that say fin and tail powered propulsion, which results in superior aerodynamics, surpasses the energy effieciency of modern propellers!(Especially for extremely large cargo ships)Pretty fun stuff to think about! And they all use one form or another of the 'pump' form of propulsion that we use in LD skating..just on different scales and in different mediums. Anyway, I thought some of you might want to dig a little deeper into some of the bio history of pumping. And remember, all of us pumpers know the mystery of why dolphins are always smiling! If we were pumping 12-16hrs. hours per day at 15-30k per hour, in 3 dimensions and upside down too, jumping in the air, and racing to catch the cruise liners in the tropics for a quick surfing session...we also would probably end up with permanent smiles on our faces! :)
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Carver CX complete for sale
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On 10/5/2006
Chrys
wrote in from
United States
(66.69.nnn.nnn)
I've got a Feral Arts 41 X 9 maple deck with concave w/ Carver CX trucks in immaculate condition and really clean Grippins wheels 78a.
$115 complete.
take5@austin.rr.com
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sliping out cont.
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On 10/5/2006 nic
wrote in from
United States
(208.57.nnn.nnn)
it happens to slide out on heel "pumps" or carves or what ever and im going to try to put up some pics of my board for you all
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rtx kiro cones and skate envy!
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On 10/4/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(217.44.nnn.nnn)
JP,
i'm using about 15 degree of wedge, and this is my slalom setup, but its how i've been setting up my 36"er as well, you dont need washers with the inserts and i've found there is a slight lip on some of these so not just a cone but with a little extra on the bottom, i'm amaized how much difference it made.
Hope you get a chance to try it, the rear i set up the rts with 8-10 degree de-wedge, but im sure you have your own prefrence, im using the black stock bushings in this although i have split one set!!
These are obviously zig-zags but i use my 70mm 72a flashbacks on the 36 setup.
I'm off my deck at the mo, as i've finaly hurt myself, have my ankle strapped and suffering with calf cramps from too much night work, so just skate envy at the moment, the nights are getting dark sooner, hope i dont end the season with my foot in the air!
Let me know what you think?
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Splitfires
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On 10/3/2006
Chrys
wrote in from
United States
(66.69.nnn.nnn)
Thanks James,
Exactly what I needed to know.
So,I'm ready to go and Gary tells me he has R1 Trackers 107mm but no (non bearing) front 107mm trucks.
Know anybody who has one for sale?
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munchh's trackers
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On 10/3/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
The tracker rts-midtrack setup that Jackman uses a lot as a front truck on his AXE, has a pretty sweet feel. I think that has a barrel top and bottom. I haven't played around much with the cone bushings or really tested the tracker much, but its 'progressive' turn seems to lend itself more to fast, powerful sprints in slalom and take a bit more energy investment than I want to dish out over miles and miles in LDP. If you've got something dialed I'm willing to test that theory out-- I've got some midtracks and a pair of 106mm hangars...
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Splitfire Questions
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On 10/3/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Hey Chrys, so I'm lookin' at the question and I have an opinion or two. ;-)
1. I think for LDP the precision gain from the bearing setup is a relatively insignificant upgrade. I think for slalom, its an excellent reason to check out. That said, I'm still going to be testing them, but with the main purpose being slalom.
2. The others work great, but R1 35 degree Tracker baseplate set up in back is my favorite so far.
3. Considering the long wheelbase, the 107mm hangar front and back is best for the Roe LDP. I typically add the 5mm spacers in as well, which is also for keeping big wheels from biting the hangars. I don't like to space the wheels 10mm or more from the hangars, I think that starts to stress the axles a little as you're getting the wheels farther away from the 'meat' of the hangar.
One huge benefit to splits is, when angle-wedged, you can still run big wheels AND keep your overall height off the ground pretty low, which makes for easier steep uphill pushing. Hope that helps!
Alan, my email to you a week or so ago bounced. The Bennetts are an excellent lower priced option, guys at Salem slalom race were checkin out my Bennett setup and concur!! The CX's are nice but I'm not riding them as much lately -- high off the ground and blowing through more bushings on 'em.
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Splitfire Questions
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On 10/2/2006
Chrys
wrote in from
United States
(66.69.nnn.nnn)
So I'm lookin' at the Splitfires and I have a question or two.
1. Was the front truck as good, better or not as good for LDP before they put the bearing in the hanger on the new model?
2. The way to go is with the R1 35 degree Tracker baseplate set up in back, correct?
3. Is the 107mm width front and back best for the Roe LDP deck
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rear out, head down
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On 10/1/2006
tarin
wrote in from
Denmark
(82.143.nnn.nnn)
i'd say its probably too much pressure on your front foot too.. do the slips happen when you're pumping toeside or heelside? notice which it is and move the weight back to your back foot on whichever pump direction is being problematic..
loosening the back truck a bit is good but i keep mine pretty tight because it gives me more pumping power.
if you're using street deck trucks make sure the front truck is nice and loose, otherwise it's a bitch to pump.. and the amount of torque you're putting into it just to get it to go might also account for the slippage..
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Setup
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On 9/30/2006
Alan
wrote in from
United States
(24.161.nnn.nnn)
Hey guys, I'm lovin the little pumping I can do right now and really want to up it by getting something better than my stock equipment.
I've been reading the setuping up your board on pavedwave and I found that the price difference for splitfires and many of the other trucks is huge, but what is the performance difference?
That is the biggest hill for me right now to upgrade my stuff, everything else will fall into place once I can finally decide which trucks to get, lol.
Thanks for all you help!
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Nic's slippin!
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On 9/30/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(217.44.nnn.nnn)
Hey Nic,
i get the same problem on the my 24" deck, i've been told there are to things, the rear truck is too tight or your back leg is too straight, 'bend your knees' is being shouted alot, but Peters is right about those bushings, kiro all the way.
JP, dont know what you've used with your rtx/rts, but i found that a white barrel at the front has a stopping point, it must be how they fit in the hanger, but i was getting a definate dead spot with little return. there is alot of power going into not alot of board though.
I only noticed after riding a friends deck with all the same setup, he had a far greater rebound using the white cone inserts top and bottom, i soon set mine up the same, its made loads of difference?
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slippin rear
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On 9/29/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
nic, it would be cool to see that lexan board, any pics? yowch if you hit your head twice already i hope you got your lid on... Sounds like you need to put more weight over and into the rear truck, you still might get some slide at faster speeds with those wheels but as long as its a controlled grind you'll still power out of it and keep pumpin forward. Whenever possible I'd also recommend a $10 upgrade from the DohDohs to Khiros all around (white front, red or blue in back) - will improve your setup immensely!
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preventing rearend slip outs
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On 9/29/2006 nic
wrote in from
United States
(208.57.nnn.nnn)
i have a home made lexan plastic bannana board thats 23" by like 5.5" its got a slight camber the trucks are some regular street deck trucks that are propably 7" at the most i replaced the stock bushings with some 88a doh dohs and some 72mm 75a sector 9 wheels well when i try to pump really hard the rear end tends to feel "light" or like its about to slip out and thats happend 2 all ready and both time ive hit my head hard so id like to know what im doing wrong so i can fix it
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Trucks for Pumping
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On 9/28/2006
lonerider
wrote in from
United States
(65.249.nnn.nnn)
Sean you can scroll down for a very recent discussion on trucks. James Peters also has an amazing pumping gear FAQ here. From James most recent update, Bennet Vectors 4.3 sound like a great affordable option ($27 at MileHighSkates.com) - you should buy at least 2 khiro wedges for the front truck according to his testing.
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truck
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On 9/28/2006 sean
wrote in from
United States
(67.101.nnn.nnn)
does anyone know of good trucks to learn to pump on. im told my trucks are too big. if anyone know of good trucks that arent too expensive. and where to buy them. i live in jersey so there really isnt too much long boardig in the area.
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soft v hard wedge
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On 9/28/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Good question, that's a hard wedge + 2 soft shock wedge combo, I normally run like that only if the deck is fairly rigid. I tend to tolerate a little more 'give' if the setup is mainly for trail riding rather than a twitchier slalom course config. This one's a stiff camber/concave so its an okay match. But if its a flexier deck, a soft flat shock pad and hard wedge risers feel best. With this particular deck I'd have liked more hard wedges but actually I just...ran out...more money to Khiro Bob!!
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splits trackers bennetts CX ldp mermaid etc etc
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On 9/28/2006
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
JP, How much baseplate movement do you think you get with that huge stack of soft risers? Maybe the amount is trivial but I've always opted for hard risers when stacking high, coupled with a flat 1/8" soft riser for shock absorption.
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How to Pump