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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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LD pump deck and concave
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On 11/20/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
Al and Airin, couple weeks back I took out the Flexdex60 again. Momentum is magic on that thing. Once a board that length's moving fast, you can lock into consistent, long pumps and the boards weight seems to keep it going. For mellow cruisin where most of the terrain is flat to slight decline, the weight of deck and trucks helps to generate speed, and I still like that setup for a cruise. On the flip side, you'll feel its heft on long extended gradual inclines. So for performance, the shorter (tho not too short) 30--34" wheelbase and a little camber/pop in the equation feels perfect.
With hard concave built into a deck, I've experienced the same foot pain you're talking about Al. The Arbor pintail is sweet for downhilling, short sprints, or mile rides. But when you're up on the deck longer, unless you're taking short push rests I think the hard concaves stress the arch somewhat. At the same time, I like just a little extra leverage/concave on opposing toe and heel sides for pumping uphill, and watching Brad Jackman shred it got me toying around with PPS soft wedge pads this summer. Since you strategically stick the concave exactly where its preferred, its easy to experiment, without having to custom-order decks or warp a chunk of wood. The foam is easy to shave and shape. And since it has some give to it, so far I haven't had the same kind of "pain in the arch"
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marathon pumps seattle 2006!
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On 11/17/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
Joe, its cool to hear the cross-town pump and flatlanding scene pickin up steam. Thats a pretty fast time you posted on the 8.3, with that mixed terrain the average speed is over 21mph, yowza... You're probably aware the NW has some push and/or pump races, the Portland Push series in OR and a couple marathons in Seattle, now 3 years running! The Portland series is run by Josh Burt, a cross-town format sometimes with fast hills and crazy city obstacles.
In both the Seattle Solstice (13m/26m) and the MS Skate (12m/24.7m), the fastest speeds were 12mph averaged over the duration of the Burke Gilman trail - with a huge emphasis on pumping. I'm biking it this winter with an altimeter to map out the true terrain, but after having rode it many times, it seems like the gradual declines cancel out the gradual inclines with a grand sum of 'pretty damn flat.' The coolest thing is both races end near Fremont, a very hip Seattle 'burb. The events go rain or shine, so I always pray to the sun gods for a pump race... if its rain, then its slap on the big honkin' flywheels and push 'til your legs fall off (...or just crawl to the local pub.)
I'm hoping for an even bigger showing next year -- the Solstice Skate will be the 3rd Sunday of June 2006, and the MS Skate is August 20th 2006. And next year, longboarding is "officially" a part of the MS Skate brochures and flyers!
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Don O' Shei
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On 11/17/2005 GI Joe
wrote in from
United States
(65.19.nnn.nnn)
Cool, if anyone deserves a model it's that guy!
He has put in his fair share to promote skateboard
racing, Fat City Racing is a legend and an
inspiration to many of us promoters.
Have any of you done crosstown races?
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comet
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
What's the length of your comet Adam?
and yeah, definitely a combo of pumping and switch pushing is killer for going long distances. Right now that's my formula and though I'm not going to set any speed records I do regularly use this method to skate a 25 km loop on my 60 inch LBL with 180 R2's and gumballs. I am thinking of switching to 150 Randals to see how that feels but I'm always kind of shy of wheelbite...risers help avoid it but can put you kind of high when doing the pump/switch push combo.
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Comet O'Shei
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(64.81.nnn.nnn)
Comet Don O'Shei is correct. It's circa 2002, I think. Bamboo core, triaxial glass top and bottom with dual carbon strips running the length of the deck.
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Comet O'Shei
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On 11/17/2005
GI Joe
wrote in from
United States
(65.19.nnn.nnn)
Adam, don't you mean Jon O'Shei model? I have one and race it for
tight slalom, it rocks! Same thing, wedge the front and de-wedge
the back so it steers predictably. I haven't visited this forum
before and find it really cool to have one site that has so many
little niches that users are likely to cross over. Even if it
takes years!
OK, I'll jump right in. At the last Sandia All Around Challenge
there was an 8.3 mile Cross Town race, we had run it once before.
There is a little down hill at the start, to gently sloping striped
bike lane with a few miles of flat in the middle and a few blocks
of slightly uphill just before the end. This years winner was Ryan
Ricker in 23.5 minutes, a new course record by nearly 7 minutes!
Pumping is a key factor in these kinds of races and we saw most
racers on bacisally long slalom set ups and ditch boards. Everyone
ran Randal 150's with the exception of Jason Mitchell on Radikals.
I ran my Dregs 44' concave pintail with 76 mm Goddess of speed
wheels. Ryan also won on the Dregs Pintail. It's VERY pumpable
and yet stable at 30 plus with the 150's.
I'd say that pumping over 12 mph takes much less effort than
pushing and that in a distance race conserving energy will
make or break you. The more you practice it the easier it gets
and when combined with switch pushing....watch out! I'm sure
I sound like a race fanatic and should find my way back over to
Speedboarding and Slalom, but I am curious what kind of distances
you guys pump across. I read something about 1/2 amaraton?
Anyone interested in the next crosstown race in Abq? It could
be sooner than you think.
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what's your deck?
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
My deck is a Comet Don O'Shei stiff flex flipped to provide rocker. The trucks are 146mm Seismics with 8mm axles. I use a flat 1/2" riser on front for added leverage, and a wedged riser at rear to remove some tail steering. I use extra light spring up front, heavier out back. It CRANKS.
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what's your deck?
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
What deck are you using for your pumping set up Adam?
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Seismic Hot Spot 77a for pumping
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
Turquoise blue Avalons were my favorite pumping wheel for a long time until I got my hands on Dan's new Seismic Hot Spot wheels in 77a. With ceramic bearings, proper bearing spacers, and a true 8mm axle, my pumping deck almost propels itself. ;)
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thanks for your input guys!
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for all the info guys. This is really helpful!
I agree greatly with the 3dm's, I have found the Avalons to be my favourites so far too.
Really, really useful info on the risers set ups with the various wheel/truck combos James - thanx!
Yeah of course some wheel wells would definitely be a good idea too.
Ok, we've got a wink of dry pavement so I'm heading out to pump some more...
later,
airin
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pump set-ups
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On 11/17/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Airin,
I'll throw my 2 cents in, again, on this one. I don't know if you have wheel wells cut into your deck or not, but if you don't, you need them. After you have these you can then adjust the height, with risers, to the type of wheels you're using. I'm with Peters on the 3DM wheels. I like all of them, but generally use the Avalons. There is something with the edges of the 3DMs, that give a little extra push when pumping. I think it's because they are sharp,and very flexible, as compared to rounded and more ridgid edges found on the Gumballs, Abec 11, Kryptonics etc..
Oh...another thing I never mentioned in my previous posts...Double pumping. Someday you have to throw someone on back of your 48 incher and try tamdem pumping..its a kick! I rode like this with my niece who is fairly light and a good torsion pumper. We had no problem keeping the rhythym. More experiments with this to come!
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carver & risers
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On 11/16/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
airin, with most flatland pump setups some extra riser may be unavoidable, but as long as the bushings are tight and in good shape (before they blow out) then wheelbite risk can be almost nil. Setups that have worked are:
- CarverC7 + 60mm NoSkools + 1/2" soft angled riser
- CarverCX + 62mm Cambrias + 1/2" hard riser + 1 shock pad
- CarverCX + 68mm Avalons + 5/8" Original hard riser + 1 or 2 shock pads
- CarverCX + 75mm Avilas + 5/8" Original riser+1/2" hard riser (1-1/8" total)
note - these are setup for flatland pumping, where 99% of the time your feet are off the ground.
in contrast, with pushing you're temporarily and repeatedly supporting weight with the front leg (feeling front quad burn) so that's why pushers don't like to have a board that feels too jacked up -- all the up and down movement can feel like a pogo stick. A good middle ground is probably the Avalon or Cambria-the lower CG feels more stable all around if you're carving some hills as well as pumping flats, and inclines are easier to pump when the wheels are smaller.
even on Randal 150s with Grippins, I still had to use about 3/4" of riser because generating momentum on flats, you're cranking hard and carving deep. as loose as I like to keep Randals, avoiding the dreaded 'bite required almost the same amount of riser.
in any case, whenever I mount up a trial setup, I stand on the extreme edge over a front wheel and push the deck down, then have a buddy eyeball the gap between wheel and deck (there better be a gap!) then if there's still at least 1/2" of play, then just take it super slow and speed up very gradually. that way at ride-time you can get a little wheel 'rub' rather than a bite, then hop off and throw on a little extra riser... rinse lather repeat ;-)
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more on Carvers
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On 11/16/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Well on reading more about the Carver CX'x I am getting a little concerned about wheelbite. Guys are saying that with a wheel larger than 60mm they are getting wicked wheelbite...running 1/4 to 1/2 inch risers I think.
Hummm, so I was hoping to use at least 70mm Grippins and preferrably Gumballs so I dunno.....don't want to end up with the deck all jacked up on a stack of risers...
maybe I'll have to go back to plan A: 150 mm R2's?
Anyone have any thoughts on this? (anyone even reading these posts??!! or am I just typing messages to myself here on this forum...lol....)
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Carver CX
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On 11/16/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Ok so I am thinking of taking the plunge with Carver CX's for the long distance pumping. From what James Peter's has said and other reviews of these trucks I am convinced that they may be a better option for pumping than the R2's with stims that I have been using for the longer skates.
I don't have much of a budget for truck experimentation and I have already been disappointed with previous pumping truck experiments ( most notably with Seismics and their the inability to run loose enough for my weight and skating style ) so here's keeping my fingers crossed that the Carvers will pan out!
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half marathon
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On 11/14/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Wow, way to go Pete! An hour for a half marathon, that's some pretty hard pushing.
What was your board and how did you have it set up? If you do it again, what will you do different, if anything?
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Half Marathon
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On 11/13/2005
Pete
wrote in from
United States
(24.152.nnn.nnn)
Hey all-
I entered the Silver Strand Half Marathon Skate (rollerblading) Division with my longboard today. Everyone was stoked to see a longboarder out. I finished 104 of about 185 and 6th in my age group. It was a long hour, but my iPod helped get me through it. I didn't pump a lot, but used alternating kicks- skogging, as keyed by Chris Yandall. I thought I'd share this with my skating bros to encourage others to look for similar events. I'm usually out at Mission Beach in San Diego- any other San Diego skoggers or pump-skaters out there?
Longboarder 4 Life-
Pete
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LBL pumping board
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On 11/9/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Al, yes I see your point about the width at the rear and the flat deck both helping in LD. I am going to be working with Larry to come up with a LD board and your suggestions are very valuable in the developement this type of board. I'll keep you posted.
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LD pump decks
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On 11/9/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Airin,
I took a look at the boards on the LongBoard Larry site. Most seem to be concaved or pintailed and with holes way too far forward. As already mentioned, in my opinion, concaves are not comfortable or convenient for the long haul. I've tried to figure out why many times in the past and came to these conclusions: If the board is strong enough not to sag it doesn't need the concave for support. The concave hampers foot movement, and also reduces the "pedal effect" mentioned by Peters. It also makes the feet more tired, I think. I never liked concave for any type of pumping, except maybe for when pumping on street boards(however, I find that street boards are superior for pump-climbing steeperhills). Along the same lines, I dont like pintails. As Peters mentioned a while back, the wide back gives a 'pedal' or strong torsional push to the rear wheels which definitely increases power. This is significantly reduced if the rear of the deck is too narrow...as well as when the front trucks are located too close to the nose. Its the same principle: There is a need for a pedal on both ends.
Now you have peaked my curiosity for longer cruisers! It's one area I haven't tested too much as my assumption has always been to start with a suitable wheel base...which I thought could not be longer than about 30". So, I think I'll try a 48incher pretty soon. Anyway, best with everything and keep pumping!
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longboardlarry decks
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
BTW, Al you can see the two decks I am talking about here:
http://www.longboardlarry.net/boards/index.html
specifically the "Otter" and the "Kahakai Cruiser"
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good points Al
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ah, I understand what you mean by the backwards facing now. If it wasn't just bucketing down rain right now I'd rush right out and give that a try....soon though.
As for the longer boards, I really appreciate what you are saying about the wb. At the same time I am trying to figure out what it is on the five footer that makes it work so well for the LD. James Peters also has had some experience pumping a 60 inch board; I wonder what his thoughts are on this. He has also gone distance on 47 inch decks. His insights would be useful.
I want to have Larry build me a board specifically for pumping so getting the specs worked out is important to me. I don't have space for too many boards at any one time in my quiver so I like to get pretty close to what I am imagining when I get a new board built. The two cruisers both work very well for LD but I am just thinking that a little more stiffness would serve me well. I am expecting that it will allow even more of the energy to translate into the forward momenetum hence the idea of a board just for the LD disipline.
So again how I arrived at the idea of 48 inches was given that 60 is good and 43 is nearly as good, I figured 48 would be a nice middle point ...something still a bit portable and not too heavy but with ability to hold the momentum like the longer board does.
It is really fun to play with this, dare I say "new", type of skateboarding, eh? Not really much to go on except our own experiments and the knowledge we share.
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LD riding styles
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On 11/8/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Arin,
Regarding riding styles, I think they come in the same way as the various board set-ups..by monkeying around and having fun and trying something new. Yes, I do ride occasionally facing parcially backward, but always have to keep my face somewhat forward facing..to avoid a fall I don't even want to think about!. The motion is almost identical to the motion that an ice skater or in-liner makes when riding backwards, and is really no big deal. Yes, you do need to convert your thinking to maintain the normal pump motion while facing a generalized backward direction, but its not that difficult once you are very proficient with normal pump riding. The problem comes when you are tired from normal pumping, and make the switch to the backward style, there is a temptation to change the direction of pump motion. Confusion with the motion can creep in and cause a loss of momentum.
As you must already know, the general pump motion, once going smoothly , flows in a ryhmic circular fashion. After maintaining this motion, slowly slide you feet until your toes start to point backwards somewhat. Naturally, your heels will start leading in maintaining the same motion as before. So continuity is the key to this type of riding... that is.. switching positions and body directions without losing momentum, speed or the circular orientated rhythum normally associated with pump carving. I guess in-liners have a better idea of how the falls feel like..luckily i'm not yet experienced in this.
When I have some time, I think I'll make a super long board to test this ultra long deck concept. I'm just a little skeptical, that the trucks, being 35+ inches apart can give the same quality of ride, as trucks spaced at 27". Also,everything you mentionioned about momentum, etc..is also part of my experience with LD riding. Short boards under about 38" are no good.(Although they are great for general pump carving and pump sprints) I have spent many hours trying to convice myself that I can make a small, superlight board, that will be superior for longer distances. But the old problem of space always surfaces. When you're tired, there's no place to move to. So the lightness of the board doesn't make up for the increased mobility offered by the longer deck. Anyway, that's my thought on that subject! Have fun!
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very cool stuff Al
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I find it really interesting to read about your experiences with LD pumping Al. There are still so few people that pump on longer boards for distance. Its great to connect here!
The reason I am thinking of going the 48 inch deck route is because I currently pump both a 60 inch board and a 43 inch board. I love how the five footer carries its momentum so I am pretty sold on the longer deck. The 43 is a little quicker but doesn't seem to hold onto the generated speed as well as the 60. Given that, I thought I'd try for a 48 incher.
I am skating pretty light weight decks being only 125 lbs myself. The boards are baltic birch....9 ply ....so it feels very 'floaty' when a good pump gets going.
Its all trial and error at this point and I agree with you that one has to try to find that sweet 'gear ratio' that suits their weight, strength and pumping style.
I was particularly interested in the variety of stances that you use when LD skating....I am most intriqued with the backwards position. Do you actually generate the pump while facing backwards? I am definitely going to experiment more with moving around on my board when going for the multiple k's.
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LD Pumping
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On 11/8/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Arin and Peters,
Regarding set-ups for long distance, I also continue to tweek and test the multitude of combinations possible. But I guess this is what makes the whole thing fun! I have a 3kilometer course close to my house, here in the Dominican Republic with a little upgrade for testing the set-ups. I like proving the set-ups first on slight up-grades..to give a quick indication of whether changes made are generally better or worse than the former. Now I have torsion cruised on almost every length board... even decks about 18" long from Toys R US!however, I cant remember using anything over about 45". Actually, when I read about your milage Peters, I'm definately impressed, because, I thought, for a while, I was the only long distance pumper out there! I never came across this blog before,so was somewhat in the dark as to other long distance riders.
My summary after many tests are as I wrote to Arin, that is, about 43" is a perfect size deck. I would probably prefer a little shorter to a little longer though. Why? Because as both of you,I'm sure, already know, that the truck spacing is very important for torsion riding. If the trucks are too close it's like riding a bike in 1st gear. If too far apart, in 10th. However, this distance should be dicided by your size and weight, and also by your strength. Really its very comparable to long distance cycling in this regards. The problem with a 48" board though, is that, I think the trucks/wheels need to be spaced in the 24-27" range. If you have a 5-6"nose...that will leave a huge tail!(with a 48" board) However, I might indeed be wrong in this assumption because I never really pumped long distance on anything over this 43 incher.
As for the Sidewinders, I think they are only available now on the Hydraboards, not sold separately. And this is unfortunate for those who want to ride LD, because alot of custom work is necessary to tweek the trucks, decks etc.. for good LD pumping. I mentioned, I used 2 insert parts on the rear truck...just as an experiment, getting rid of the riser pad that wasn't necessary.. and it worked surprisingly well. The added weight didn't seem to make much of a difference and I actually kind of enjoyed the feel of a little weight on the rear end, as I have said I ride waaay forward.
for riding style, I also do some telemarking during my rides with both feet almost equally together, pointing forward.( with one heel just a few inches behind the other for some stability. So too, I switch my feet abit and ride butt first sometimes, just like the ice skaters do, just to add a little diversity and to change muscle groups. Anyway, torsion crusing is a blast, as you all know. I'll throw you an update from time to time if I find anything interesting in these regards, and I'll keep my eye on this new site!
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back to ya
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On 11/7/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for the detailed replies guys. You've given me lots to think about. Right now I have two set ups that I use for long distance pumping and though they are both working quite nicely for me I can't resist tweaking and experimenting.
I am a big LBL fan and as such both my decks are custom boards by Larry. The Kahakai cruiser is a five foot board the I first learned flatland pumping on. It is generally set up with 180 R2's and I have tried Gumballs, Flashies, Grippins and Avalons on this deck. I run very very loose trucks and hangers are flipped cause I just prefer the smooth turn that gives me.
As well I have been pumping the Otter which is a 43 inch board that also sports 180mm Randals. I'm thinking I may just have to try some 150's on this board to see how that feels.
Both these decks were initially meant for flatland cruising and thus have a little more flex than a long distance pumping board might need. I am mulling over the idea of having Larry build me a designated flatland pumper and as such am coming to you, the distance skaters, for ideas and input.
I see the value of the width over the front trucks now as its true a lot of the time this is where my front foot stays. And I do really enjoy the longer boards for the distance, as Al mentioned it allows for changing postitions and as well seems to carry the momentum more efficiently over the long haul. I'm thinking a 48 inch board with only slight flex would be sweet. It sounds like both Al and James seem to feel that concave isn't the necessary in a long distance pumping deck. That's interesting. So what about some subtle camber?
James it would great to hit the seawall for some skating if you came up our way later this month - do keep me posted. I also hope to make it down for one of your skates next season. In the meantime I'm sure I'll be able to amuse myself by dreaming about the perfect long distance pumper.
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hc, airin, al, pumpin freaks!
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On 11/7/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey hc - best time so far on the mile is 4:11, that's accdg to Munson. I don't know my mile, but if the NW rain ever lets up I'll go check...crikey I'm about to lose my mind here, or just move south!! The other recorded time/distance is the 25-miler this summer, I completed that in 2:04:17 with 95% pumping, 5% cheater pushes, and Munson did it in 2:16:08 without touching ground. We'll be doing that again July 2006 so maybe you can make a trip up?!
airin! I'm hopeful we'll still make a Stanley Park visit late in Nov, will let ya know... narrow's okay in front, but personally I like width in back of the deck for the "gas pedal" effect, having a platform to push the board forward. i've tried turning a speedboard into a pumping board, no flex of course, but having that really narrow nose to mount huge wheels (97s--101s) and not get the dreaded bite. But I still prefer having the option to stand almost directly over the front truck from time to time (like Al here) so the "pin nose" never worked out for the long haul.
150s: much preferred for pumping flatland, though in slalom it gets a lot narrower as you already know... the 150s seem to better fit the flow of a multi-mile trail ride, assuming your deck is anywhere in the 38"--45" range. only if I know there's going to be some serious hills in the ride would I go back to the R180 hangar. My fall/winter rides have been a really stiff Arbor pintail and a 41" stiff LibTech, so I think in the end I like just a little flex, but definately not 'sag.'
Al, you been riding some distances man! 43", no concave, and a little flex... that sounds exactly like my custom Insect. I'm still completely sold on Carvers, and just started testing out RTR trucks a month ago...but I'm curious about these Sidewinders, they seem kind of heavy, no? Any links where to buy just the trucks? I found completes at skatesonhaight.com with 'em but I don't need another deck, just the trucks. Do you run that funky truck both in front and in back? Great to see this stuff takin' off!
jp - pavedwave.org
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How to Pump