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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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thanks!!
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On 12/15/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Al - appreciate the very cool surprise! Sounds like you've been firmly entrenched in this surf-truck design for quite some time, very impressive. I really like the double-pivot idea, achieving complex motion with simple design, that's the ticket. I'd be so interested in a prototype truck pivot part if you are really able to do that. I could swap stuff out if you've got any request I can meet, got a few 'extra' trucks at the moment. And I really like your comment on getting kids on 'em, I think if the little tykes take out a surfing/carving deck right from the start, they'd get hooked for life.
I also hope someday we'll all be hooking up at an event, lets keep it in mind next year!
And wow, thanks both Al and Eric for the comments on my site! I've got many thanks to return to the skate community this year, but seeing this LDP addiction taking off is the best.
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Thank you, Al!
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On 12/15/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Al, that is a very generous offer.
I was not really trying to get you to give us trucks or parts.
I'm just really interested in what you're doing.
It sounds like you are quite a truck engineer in addition to being an excellent pumper.
I'll send you an e mail, and if you're serious I would love nothing more than to try out what you can send. I am very excited about this, actually.
It's great to share ideas with other like minded people.
It's a really good group here. Hopefully we can schedule a pump/skog/skump fest
in a central location that we could all make it too. I'd love to meet and skate with all of you. Thanks - Eric.
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awesome, I'm in!
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On 12/15/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Al, what a kind offer - I'd so love to experiment with your pumping truck prototypes.
I just got back from measuring and marking the Trap. And was just about to head out a second time today to skate the sprint pump.
But first I'll send an email off to you.
cheers!
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odds n ends
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On 12/15/2005
Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
OK Silversurfer...I'm going to look around for some old inserts that might be lying around that you can play around with. I'll make sure they have the small pivots and cups so you can insert them into a Indy/venture/Krux type truck if you have one lying around. This is because your interest and curiosity won't go away. I'll also look for some more that I can send to Peters and maybe Erin..if they want them. However, since these are not the Sidewinders, I would prefer that you don't refer to them as such in any critiques or posts..but rather as a prototype double pivot truck..etc..which they are. Also, I'd like to send these only for the purpose of furthuring the pumping aspect of the sport...as this is my primary goal. Hence, any reference to these trucks are better mentioned here, as compared to Silverfish forums...which seems to have only a few skaters interested in Pumping..much less..LD pumping.
Anyway..E-mail me with your address and I'll try to get some prototype inserts to the three..Silversurfer, Peters, and Erin...If any want them. I'll also send a couple extra parts so that you can insert more than 1 insert into a truck..and make a 3 kingpin rear truck if you are interested. I'll do this to save time...because I really think Silversurfer will begging for an extra...real soon! But then again....like Peters says.."we can dream!" And I'm probably the biggest dreamer of you all! But dreaming makes for some real fine skateboarding....when you finally get 'the set-up'! You can contact me at awlms@hotmail.com and I'll try to get them out..by..uhh...Christmas??
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Paved Wave
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On 12/15/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
For anyone who still hasn't seen it...check out one of my very favorite websites - www.pavedwave.com .
Al I'd really like to hear more about your trucks and your set ups.
I know practice, training and endurance are going to be the critical factors in how fast and far we can skate. And I'm going to work on that when the weather breaks (probably not till spring). But I'm an equipment geek and not being able to skate much only fuels my equipment imagination. I'm always trying to figure out the ultimate set up for some form of skating or other.
My skills dont really justify all the equipment, but it makes it more fun for me anyway.
If you could tell us anything about the development of the sidewinders such as how the idea came about or what your involvement was it would be super cool.
I know you cant tell us much about future designs, but please share what you can. Maybe you could post pics of some of your older non seceret set ups.
What is the story of sector 9 and gullwing colloborating on this?
Do you have any contacts that can help us get just the trucks and not the complete? Thanks - Eric
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Paved wave & misc
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On 12/15/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Peters, I'm glad you mentioned the 'Paved Wave' site...because I had not seen it before! Very impressive!! Also, everything you are doing, to try to spread pumping and distance riding, is what I have been trying to do, both in the SF Bay Area and also here in Santo Domingo, where I am currently living. Fortunately I have the 2003 Pan American Games skate track near by..and really, pretty much to myself, except for some occasional kids on roller blades. Anyway your enthusiasm is great! As I posted before...I really thought ,for about 2 years, that I was the only one doing any sort of long distances, and only in the last month or two have I been 'enlightened' by this site! Now I see that I am a real beginner!! Butthe real hang-up I think is not pumpstyle,and equipment.. but practice time and endurance. However, you and the others are very inspiring..and its good to see that pump racing/cruising/skogging is becoming more and more popular. Currently, I am working on some new truck designs that are intended to make pumping easy for not only strong skaters, but new riders and women and children in particular. Unfortunately, I can't divulge too much info on the set-ups at this time, but they are somewhat promising, and I continue to improve them on a day to day basis. The systems are also patent-pending in various countries, so this furthur adds to my reservation for full scale promotion before they're finished. However, I can say that when the time is right, you and some of the riders on this site(and your wives and children!) can be the first critics of my new designs.. and I won't hesitate to send out free demo's to those of you who want them. However...I think I might not be ready until the up coming summer, or so. Anyway, when I am doing my Trap racing and distance riding in the future...it will almost always be on my most recent edition of the trucks that I am currently designing. So if my times increase significantly, it should be an indication that the trucks are getting better and better! Anyway, that's the scoop on what I'm doing here in Santo Domingo, for those, like you, Peters, Silversurfer, and maybe a few others.. seem to be curious about.
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re - other trap distances!
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On 12/14/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey silversurf, now you're quoting that pump and push division stuff straight off my 'pavedwave' pages!! (thx) That list is something Gareth, Munson and I tossed around a couple years ago when we were brainstorming races that might work on the Velodrome.
Dong suggested a 4-man relay which sounded cool. And -- if we had unlimited funding we'd call it the "Cyberdrome" where instead of steep banks, have the ends of the track dip down into bowls you can pump speed out of back into the flat straightaways. Hey we can dream can't we??
IMHO, good setups are pretty much hard duros (84-92) and GS-length (36") lightweight decks. Check the top Cyber listings - most everyone's still on 70mm-74mm wheels.
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Chaput on Pumping Equipment
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On 12/14/2005 Eric
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
"On 7/31/2004 Chris Chaput wrote in from United States (66.116.xxx.xxx)
I think that it will be interesting to see what kind of equipment will be used in a fast, unlimited pump-fest. When you're riding a bike, it's easy to get up to speed in a low gear but as you go faster and faster, you lose the ability to pedal that fast and you have to change to a higher gear.
I'm able to pump my speedboards even though they have very slow turning trucks, big wheels and a long wheelbase. It takes a number of good strong pushes but once you get moving, it's very stable feeling - like using high gear on your bike when going down hill. I'm guessing that the fastest pumpers will overcome the sluggish start of a longer wheelbase and larger wheel and enjoy the stability of the "high gear" that kicks in about 15mph. Lastly, aerodynamics will play a big role in top end speed because our upright pumping stance becomes a parachute if we don't lose the baggy clothes and protective gear. That's why Mollica and I shave the tops of our heads..."
So that's what Chaput thinks, what do the rest of you think the ideal set up would be for the trap and for the other distances that I mentioned below?
What is the ideal wheel size, duro and shape for pumping and/or pushing speed?
Wheels that I think would be good for this; grippins, 76mm flywheels, hot spots, retro zig zags.
Comments? Suggestions on equipment or wheel choices/duro's?
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Other Trap Distances....
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
I'd like to see some other distance times/records added to the trap games.
How about adding some of these;
PUMP DIVISION
- 1/4 mile race
- 1/4 mile 'steeplechase' -- cones on the straightaways
- 1 mile race
- 1 mile, 4-man relay (4x400m)
- 3 mile race
- cyber slalom
- ramp-start tight slalom
PUSH DIVISION
- 1/4 mile, 1 mile, 3 mile and 7 mile races, pushing, pump, skogging, it's all good!
- the trap 176 foot speed sprint race
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post times on the Trap page!
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On 12/14/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
To some of you this is obvious but what Eric posted is the Trap info from the link here on ncdsa:
http://www.ncdsa.com/the_trap.asp
I'm curious, since only 44ft times have been posted so far, when the 88 or 176 distances are posted are they all in the same list? Cool to see the new stuff coming out Chris!
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kilometres per hour?
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric, thanks for all the info on the Trap.
Is there any chance of getting a chart for conversions from seconds to kmph?
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Zig Zags
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
...surely some of us here can help test 'pump' these new wheels for you....ha, ha, ha....
good work Chris, thanks for keeping us posted.
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Pump Champion
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Chris it's nice to see you working on gear that can be used with pumping specifically in mind. Those new wheels sound hot! Keep up the great work.
How about a super ceramic builtin bearing to go with them, for more pumping speed?
And if you would post this time in the "trap" records forum you would be the trap champion!
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Pump Wheels/Formulas
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On 12/14/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Hey Everyone, just want y'all to know that in a month from now, I'll be releasing two new wheels in brand new formulas that will be perfect for pumping. They are being released under the Retro brand name and are called "ZigZags". The are hard-edged wheels with offset hubs and come in 66mm and 70mm. They are being poured in 80a, 83a and 86a durometers in a new urethane specially formulated to provide higher rebound and roll-speed in the durometers from the low to mid eighties. Our other formulas target the mid seventies for their peak rebound, but slalom style pumping requires a "firmer" wheel that won't deform too much in a tight turn. You get the control of the firmer wheel AND the higher roll-speed from the increased rebound. The shape of this wheel is nicely balanced, providing flexible lips that don't "flop", and a broad contact patch. This means traction to spare, and no hard feelings when you push beyond the level of traction.
Another nice feature of the shape is that it lends itself nicely for trimming the outside edge, the inside edge, or both. Taking off a millimeter here or there will make the wheel more nimble, but not radically change the shape/function of the wheel. We're also doing a limited run of them in 78a on our first pour. Beacuse they aren't labelled under the "green" brand, you may be happy to know that they'll be avialable in a total of 5 different (non-green) colors!
There's a lot going on in these wheels, and anyone who wants to pump a skateboard at speed and with control is gonna love 'em.
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The Trap Rules and Records
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Run The Trap!
Rules updated Sept 9, 2004
The course:
Flat area with timed speed trap measuring 176 feet.
Acceleration area before speed trap, length unlimited.
Braking area after speed trap (recommended).
How to run it:
Start from a dead stop at any distance from The Trap.
One Rider is allowed to acellerate themselves on one single 4-wheeled skateboard by ANY natural means (Pushing or Pumping) with no mechanical or external assistance.
An official "Try" is made when the front wheels of the skateboard cross the START line of The Trap and timing begins. Timing ends when those same front wheels cross the FINISH line, and timing stops.
Rider may propel themselves THROUGH The Trap by any natural means (Pushing, Pumping or Tucking/Coasting).
Score is recorded as the TIME (In Seconds, out to at least two decimal places) through The Trap.
It is suggested, recommended and requested that you run the trap on the same course in both directions and average your times to account for uneveness of the course and wind conditions.
If you're running The Trap at home, here are the Seconds to MPH conversion formula:
-For the 176' course: MPH = 120/secs.
Your 4-digit access code is unique to you, meaning that you can update your time whenever you wish. Only your best time will display in the standings.
Credit goes to Steve in AZ, who as near as we can tell was the first to propose this idea on ncdsa.com way back on July 30, 2004. Ncdsa.com is proud to be able to further fulfill our charter by promoting the sport of skateboarding through the exchange of information. Let the games begin!
Personal Best Times
Name Country Speed Trap Length Updates Comment Date Submitted IP Addr
1. Peter Klang SWEDEN 18.634 mph 44 feet 3 11/4/2004 12:08:03 AM 129.178.xxx.xxx
2. Michael Dong USA 18.450 mph 44 feet 2 Grippins this time 8/9/2004 11:15:30 PM 4.242.xxx.xxx
3. Marcus Seyffarth SWEDEN 18.405 mph 44 feet 1 Soft gRIPpiNs, HarD RaDIKals and a Strong pUSH! 11/3/2004 2:12:43 PM 81.225.xxx.xxx
4. Mike Cividino CANADA 15.707 mph 44 feet 1 first try, stop watch 9/30/2004 3:34:21 PM 24.141.xxx.xxx
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Chaput's Chart
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
"On 7/31/2004 Chris Chaput wrote in from United States (66.116.xxx.xxx)
To tell you the truth, I have no idea on whether or not I can push as fast as I can pump. Most of my fastest push/sprints are at the top of an already fast hill. Hmmm.
It will little more than a second to travel 44 feet which is not that easy to time for most people. Most of us are familiar with the 174 foot CyberSlalom course length. We are able to easily maintain a "sprint" over that length of time. I suggest that guys who have only a stopwatch and a calculator set a "trap" that is 176 feet in length. Time yourself by running the course with your stopwatch. Take 120 and divide it by the number of seconds that it took you to run the course. The result is your speed in miles per hour. mph = 120 / secs.
Here's a chart that shows the number of seconds it takes to go 176 feet and the corresponding speed in MPH."
4.0 = 30.00
4.1 = 29.27
4.2 = 28.57
4.3 = 27.91
4.4 = 27.27
4.5 = 26.67
4.6 = 26.09
4.7 = 25.53
4.8 = 25.00
4.9 = 24.49
5.0 = 24.00
5.1 = 23.53
5.2 = 23.08
5.3 = 22.64
5.4 = 22.22
5.5 = 21.82
5.6 = 21.43
5.7 = 21.05
5.8 = 20.69
5.9 = 20.34
6.0 = 20.00
6.1 = 19.67
6.2 = 19.35
6.3 = 19.05
6.4 = 18.75
6.5 = 18.46
6.6 = 18.18
6.7 = 17.91
6.8 = 17.65
6.9 = 17.39
7.0 = 17.14
7.1 = 16.90
7.2 = 16.67
7.3 = 16.44
7.4 = 16.22
7.5 = 16.00
7.6 = 15.79
7.7 = 15.58
7.8 = 15.38
7.9 = 15.19
8.0 = 15.00
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Chaput's unofficial record
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
"On 8/2/2004 Chris Chaput wrote in from United States (66.116.xxx.xxx)
If we standardize on 176 feet, we can make our calcs super simple.
Chris and I ran only an 176 foot course. The mph = 120 / our time. We know our distance is in feet. Our stopwatch only gives us seconds. This makes life simple.
120 / 6.000 = 20.00 mph
120 / 6.160 = 19.48 mph (My best pushing run so far)
120 / 6.630 = 18.10 mph (My best pumping run so far)
120 / 6.648 = 18.05 mph (This is Dong's time over 176 feet)
120 / 7.000 = 17.14 mph
120 / 7.500 = 16.00 mph
120 / 8.000 = 15.00 mph
I wasn't at Bicknell (I was in the Bahamas with family) but I believe they had 30 cones on 6 foot centers. There were 29 cone spacings (which is 174 feet) plus the start and finish. Richy's fastest raw time was 6.22 seconds. That was a steep hill but the tight settings slows you down a bit. I'm not sure that 176 feet in 5 seconds (24mph) is possible but we'll see."
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pump efficiency
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On 12/14/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
matze - your sliding story is great. having control over slides, expected or unexpected, makes all the difference between blowing out of a race and hanging on and making really wide offsets - at speed. i envy that skill!
as for pumping efficiency...looong story, tons of theories, personal preferences, so I'll keep my blab short (for now): I find keeping shoulders pointed forward "down the fall line", using chopping motions only for acceleration, and otherwise minimizing upper body motion over long distances (conserving energy) with higher frequency of small pumps, is key to maintaining efficient momentum. Practice with and watch/listen carefully to guys who are actually racing a lot. Dong and Roe swear by the value of Cyberslalom to get your pump skills and your gear figured out.
It's great to see you here! jp
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Matze and Al
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Matze, thanks for posting and welcome to the forum. How wonderful to 'meet' another LDP'er!
Hey Al, those times sound really impressive! I'm scared to see how my times compare once I find someone with a stop watch to time the trap for me.
Great that you actually have a track to do your timed distance skates on. How cool is that!?
I am curious to know how the wider trucks will affect your times.
Two more days of work and then I'm off for two weeks of Xmas holiday. With a bit of luck with the weather I should be able to get some runs in on the trap and on a 1 km section of the bike path that I skate. I shall bravely post my times so long as they aren't shockingly slow....lol
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sidewinder
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On 12/14/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
cool stuff Al! note originally I tried to break down your 656ft figure to a 176ft time, so it averages slower by a full second or more, your *actual* Trap speed is impressive, and if you're saying you're out of shape!? then guess we'd better start practicin...
i'm equally curious about the sidewinders (curiosity also piqued from your SF posts) and chatted with sector9 a week ago, sounds like they're only a package deal with the "Hydra" board currently, but hoping to work something out. judging from one picture I'd seen, it looked like sidewinders' concept was one elongated metal part with standard bushings, joining two traditional truck hangar/baseplate sets top and bottom...close?
you've got quite a deal of experience with those Al, I'm also intrigued to hear more and see your setup pics of what these are all about. yikes...gotta get back to work!
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Sidewinder trucks...
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Al - you are the guy I was talking to on sf about sidewinders, right?
Can you tell us more about your involvement in their development?
Is there anyway to get a hold of a set of them without having to buy the S9 complete?
Nice job on your times. You should post your trap time on the official trap forum record time log. Several pages back there is chart Chris Chaput or somebody put up to convert seconds into mph for 88ft and 176ft.
I'd like to see pics of your set up, Al.
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Trap and sprint times
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On 12/14/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Erin,
I have some updated times from todays riding. I pumped the trap about 12 times and came in between 10.6 secs and 10.3 secs riding the 176ft. both directions on a professional skate track. For the 200 meter I clocked 44.6 secs. The 1k was 4:11 and the 2k 9:27. I rode a homemade 43" LB with 28"WB, 80a Avalons, Bones Reds and custom sidewinders with Indy101 hangers. Soon I'll go back to the wider hangers to see how they affect the race times. Keep me posted when you get a chance to clock some times.
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typo
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On 12/14/2005 matze
wrote in from
Germany
(195.125.nnn.nnn)
Sorry, i mean 92mm Flywheels 72a and not 92a
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improve pumping efficiency
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On 12/13/2005 matze
wrote in from
Germany
(195.125.nnn.nnn)
Hello,
i am new here to this forum and what you all write is very interesting for me. I do this pumping-thing for about one year. My board is a custom made slalom-like deck with my old tracker extracks and some Gumballs. I am experimenting many with the wheel size and weight (and also with the angular momentum) and most time i do short distance pumping. So my experiments are more for short sprints (something about 2km).
In the beginning of pumping i used my old flashbacks 78a. The next improvement was my 80mm kryptos 80a. After that there was a big jump forward with the gumballs 75a and then a little upgrade with the 90mm Flywheels 78a. I tested some 92mm Flywheels 92a too, but they have to much grip and it is nearly impossible to turn.
After a half year of learning i switched back to my kryptos to give them a chance because i used the other wheels for downhill skating and classic luging and because the movement improvement of myself. This was really interesting because the kryptos has not so much grip and the rear wheels began to slide in every turn. With this reason i had improved myself again and now the rear wheels dont slide and i can transform my power better to the road.
(sorry for my bad english)
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the trap and pumping for speed
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok so I found a good spot to run the trap...a section of the old Indy track. I've just got to sweep off of the skate-braking pea gravel that's gotten scattered about and mark off the distance.
I'm also going to measure out a 1 km distance so that I can compare times with Al and any of you other pump addicts that care to share their stats.
Today I pumped loops around this big empty parking lot near my home. I just wanted to get into a groove without having to watch out for bikes and peds. The ipod was a cool addition to my training as it really add to the stoke. I tried out different foot positions, arm movements and types of body motion.
I wonder if those of you more experienced in LDP can offer any training tips? I think sprint training like the Trap will be a good for improving power and of course the longer distances will contribute to endurance. But what about methods to improve pumping efficiency overall?
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How to Pump