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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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What is pumping....
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On 12/19/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Pumping is fun and good excersize!
Check out these links to get a better idea of what pumping is;
www.pumpyourdeck.com
www.pavedwave.com
http://www.grassrootsslalom.homestead.com/files/html/howto_pump.htm
Does anyone else have any more or better links that fit in with this thread?
Chris thank you for your input on this topic. I like your scientific approach.
You are so good at so many skating disciplines and you make great skate
equipment. Will the Liquid trucks be good for pumping? I'm really looking
forward to those and the zig zag wheels. I'd like to see Chris Yandal back
contributing in this forum, too. Adam can we get him a forum on skogging?
And peters one on skumping?
Al I like your ideas, I think you are on to something.
Did you get my e mail?
-Eric ronin391@yahoo.com
equip
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what is pumping?
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On 12/19/2005
Paul Steuri
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
What exactly is pumping? From what iI have heard it is a certain way of carving to keep going as an alternative to pushing. What kind of setup is needed?
any info would be just dandy!
Thanks!
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trap
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On 12/19/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Cheers Chris,
53.6448 meters it will be and mph is fine by me, that kmph is all nonsence in my mind, the u.k. is mph, although all our t.v. insists on talking about kmph, because then it can be used in mainland europe i spose??
Just checked your Retro skates site, are you gonna do decks, cant wait to see the zig-zags, i'm using 72a flashbacks on one deck and bertz on a smaller one, no skoolz on another and those 92a flashbacks that i shaved down a bit on my sliding setup, so you have sort of kicked my essensial Kryp's to the curb at the minute?
P.S. thanks for the maths lesson, hehe.
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Conversions
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On 12/19/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
176 feet is 53.6448 meters. Mark off a distance of 53.6448 meters and run through it on your skateboard. Since we all use the same measurement of time (seconds), this will be easy. Just take 120 and divide it by the number of seconds that it took you to run the course, and the answer will how fast (in Miles Per Hour) you went. Example: It took you 10 seconds to run the course. 120 / 10 = 12 mph. Simple, yes?
The number 120 comes from converting feet per seconds into miles per hour. There are 5280 feet in a mile, and 176 feet goes into that 30 times. There are 3600 seconds in an hour because there 60 minutes, each containing 60 seconds. 3600 / 30 = 120, which is the constant that we can use for easily calculating miles per hour.
The trick is, to pick a length of track that makes the math easy, and that is easy to measure and skate. 176 feet is good for mph, but bad for kilometers per hour. No one here understands k/h, but all the smart Euros can understand mph, so mph it is.
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back on
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On 12/19/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Wohoo!
They fixed my broadband, wouldn't be so bad that it took so long, if it wasn't for the fact that i work for British telecom!!
Hi guys, you lot have been busy, like the schools idea, dont know how it would go down in England, but worth a thought, think getting some sort of comp sorted 1st might help.
Al, your trucks are sounding a bit special, i'm not going to pretend to understand too much, but it sounds exciting.
On the 'trap', can someone explain the '120' part of the equasion for the 176 foot trap and whats 176' in meters? Ive got one of those wheels for measuring under ground cable lengths that i could measure out the trap with, but it only measures meters?
Well after this synus opp, i've had one infection after another, so still havent had a chance to get out and try my new board setups, now i'm gonna be off work till the new year, i've got to get a board made for a guy before christmas som how aswell, but i'm aiming to be well enough to be on a board for my birthday on the 30th (as long as it doesn't rain)!
Good to be back amongst you all, have a great christmas everyone.
Munchh.
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mainstreaming the Pump
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On 12/19/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey Al, I agree successful grassroots organizing of events, getting this in front of kids and raising their involvement is where the future is. I pump distances for the sheer euphoria, and originally for the soulful and practical purpose of getting from point A to B. At first, I found just getting a few guys out to ride flats for any length of time was sketchy, it takes an endurance-oriented mindset. Munson and I rode together solid for a couple years - both in good aerobic shape, he runs X-country and I hiked/snowboarded obsessively.
So with longboards it seemed nuts not to take advantage of technical advances in trucks, decks, and wheels - and 'skump'. Munson really wanted me to work on engineering new pumping trucks a couple years back, but my interest was more in promotion of pump events, and testing/beating the hell out of many trucks already on the market. In other words focus on pump techniques, benefitting from innovators like you!
Now I'm often evangelizing 'skumping' to help people overcome assumptions about what's possible on a skateboard. This happens on a daily basis on commutes to/from work, meeting people downtown. They initially think it's crazy to longboard more than 5 miles anywhere. Which comes partially from the notion that you're supposed to hop on a skateboard, bust a few tricks, then hop off. That's just what they're used to seeing.
But when they watch and understand that distance pumping is a series of connected, flowing, carving turns, and see the evolution of the longer, snappier deck and trucks, and wheels that absorb the impact of cracks - I see lights go on upstairs. That its a completely viable way of going distances normally only bikers *and bladers* would attempt.
I know a number of hardcore park bros that have a real hang-up about the whole blader culture, its an age-old animosity thing. The friendly chiding is fine, but the guys who hold a real grudge, that's just dumb. My logic was if the bladers "invaded" the skateparks then why not invade their gig? So from 2003 we entered the 26-mile marathons (along with approx. 180 bladers) and in 2006, longboarding will be on the brochures and an official part of the Multiple Sclerosis benefits! The woman who organizes the event and runs her own skate school has been one of our biggest proponents for longboarding and LDP - a testament to 'peace' between the cultures.
You're right about the schools buying in -- it would be powerful and we're hoping to slowly work it in, grassroots style. Munson incorporates mention of pavedwave, and LDP demos as part of his creativity speaking presentations to schoolkids! He also wanted to start school team competitions but I just don't have enough time. I donate Flexdex Pro60's to school auctions, taking the winning bidder out a few hours session and teaching them how to 'skump.'
All we need are just more people like you, Erin, Eric and the pros and vendors that are willing to sponsor and support us!
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More on school race teams
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On 12/18/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Eric,
I'm probably more impatient than you. When we talk of more general races, we are still leaving the riding to the public, and more or less 'individual' domain, and the kids need to buy the set-ups themselves. This could take longer than finding some brave, private schools, who might think it cool to be the first to have a longboard racing team. The gear can be donated to them and then be maintained by the team. If the kids want to buy their own boards..all the better, and all the donors companies should find many new customers. Also, I'm sure the students would go wild over the idea! Regarding insurance? We can convince them to use proper safety gear, and that a sprint team is probably safer than kids who skate on their own at the local skate parks...without insurance also. Most schools have football and basketball teams, and really, these are not the safest of sports either! I think some statistics say that even street skating is less dangerous than football and basketball. So, its possible that the schools who see skating as 'cool' and popular, might be open to these new mainstream trends, especially since they are not 'destruction' orientated, as you say. Anyway, it might be worth a try..especially in a place like northern CA which has skate parks sprouting up all over the place.
As for me...I'm kind of stuck here in the Caribbean for the time being. (However, I can think of worse places to be stuck!) So I won't be able to 'skaevangelize' in NorCAL any time too soon.. I think. However, I definatly can do something here in Santo Domingo. Everytime I skate here, I have a pack of kids, young and old, who want to try the boards..and they usually manage to do preliminary pumping within an hour or so of jumping on a board. They can't resist trying to copy me, even when I try to convince them to carve 180's and normal turning, first. Actually, It might be easier to start something here, because this town and country, is filled with athletes. What makes them good at baseball, makes them good at many other sports, and a group of 'converted' marathon runners or LD bike racers might make a killer LD pump team. Believe it or not, Its possible the government would even help in something like this, because they are always interested in 'upscale' projects and skating here actually promotes a pretty good image!(that is..in comparison to dictatorships,banana republics,drug running..etc..) Anyway, Im just pondering these things..looking for ways to get these competitions going....fast?! Also, Eric..I'll be sending out the parts probably on Tuesday. So please E-mail me your shipping address. I'd like to send them all at the same time, and James' and Erin's shipments are basically ready to go.
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Pump Races
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On 12/18/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Al I like your ideas about getting skateboarding and pumping into schools.
It would be a great addition to a PE program. It's great excercise, develops balance and coordination to a very high degree and is fun. Should be perfect.
But for liability reasons and general distaste for skateboarding (due to destructive "street" skaters) it might be an uphill battle to get school administrators on board.
I think the first step is to get more long distance and sprint flat land races going within the longboard and slalom communites. Before we can convince anyone else we need to get a larger percentage of casual skateboarders into pump and skog races. Each of us could host local events, and the winners could meet for the world flat land racing series championship. Just and idea...
There are several good events already taking place on an annual basis. We could model events after them and promote the growth of this sport.
Peters event, the NYC central park race, the Portland Pusher race are all great events. I'd like to see more of them, and with standardized distances and rules. Along with a place on ncdsa for the following records; 176 ft,
1/4 mile, 1/2 mile, 1 mile, 3 miles, 7 miles and marathon.
I'd also love to see the following forums here at ncdsa;
"James Peters on Long Distance Pumping"
"Chris Yandal on skogging and pumping"
Adam are you reading this?
I'm asking nicely......Please?
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How to get pump racing into the'mainstream'?
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On 12/18/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
How can we get these pump races, both short and LD into the 'mainstream'..where they might be included in school phys.ed. programs like swimming and track and feild?? Any ideas or strategies? Say, for instance, we can develope the boards to sufficient quality, all being pretty easy and fast to pump..what else needs to be done?? How about these pump race competitions between schools, just like they do x-country competitions. And what about donating boards and equiptment to chosen schools?..maybe 10 race boards per school that is interested? And we can promise 10 more every year...if the sport becomes popular in that particular school. Then we can talk to deck makers, truck makers etc..to sponser schools?? Just an idea.
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Dreaming....
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On 12/16/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
I have a dream....to be able to pump around my local bike paths the whole way without touching a foot to pavement.
With Al's truck inserts and all the technique and equipment advice and discussion available here, that dream will be a reality by this time next year or sooner.
The evolution of skateboard technology is very exciting. I like skateboard history and vintage gear for the reference point it gives us.
We are lucky to have urethane wheels and precision bearings.
But the future is looking very bright for skating and pumping.
I think we all need to do what we can to turn everybody on to this fun form of skating. I'd like to see more people entering trap times on the trap forum,
and as I said before a longer distance trap would be great.
And long distance races with flats and mild hills will enable a lot more less experienced and younger skaters to race which will help to ensure the future of this disipline.
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trucks
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On 12/16/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Al, I have talked with JimZ and my pal Toby, a long time skateboarder and machinest, about the lack of evolution in skateboard trucks. I agree with you that this is one area that is shockingly lagging in comparison to most developments, not only in skateboarding specifically but in sports equipment generally.
Gear isn't everything but often when I see someone try a sport for the first time I notice that gear is a big part of what determines whether they'll stick with it or not. Put simply, crappy gear leads to a crappy experience.
"Everything begins with a dream". So dream on my friend and we'll celebrate where it takes you!
cheers,
erin
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past and future pumping!
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On 12/16/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Peters,
You got one idea very right! Get the 'tikes' on a good turning board very early and they are hooked for life! This is true! When I bought my first Banana board back in about 1975.. I thought I was in heaven. I can remember well riding it home and how good the urethane felt on the smooth asphalt. I was 'hooked' at that moment. About 3 years later I had a friend who pumped around a Safeway parking lot for a few minutes, and that also I couldn't believe. This was when I first learned how to pump, probably in about 1978/79. I was so impressed with these aspects of skateboarding that it stayed with me all these years. The only real problem was that the trucks never felt perfect, they were always too stiff and turning was always a little hard. I think this was why longboarding sort of died out for a while. Everyone turned to easier sports like surfing, skiing, rollerblading and cycling, because in all of these 'velosity' sports turning is very easy and people of all ages/genders can master them. It is only skateboarding that didn't keep up! This is why women are excellent at all the other sports and almost all are included in the Olympics...but the BEST SPORT OF ALL,skateboarding, is left out. For the most part, people only joke about it as being an Olympic event!
Now how did all of this come about?.. when all other sports are so highly accepted?? Because of the POOR PERFORMING TRUCKS!(Yes..even as Dan Gesmer says!)The decks and wheels have always been 'pretty good', even back in the seventies. It's the trucks that have always lacked! Since they did'nt turn well they were looked down upon, and, generally speaking, only teenage boys could participate in the sport. Only they had the youth and agression to control the 'stiff' riding trucks. Women, now, for the most part..don't even try! Anyway, I think you all know this sad story of longboarding!!
Now, however, I think things are changing! Now there are multiple new inventions, more and more sophisticated trucks, decks, bushings and bearings. Now, all of the things that kept skateboarding 'back' for the last 30 years are being repaired. Soon, I think, the skate technology will be so good and the skaters so many...that skating as an olympic event ..will be...the most popular event of them all!! Think of the agression, adrenelin and suspense of.. Trap,200m 1K, 2K, 5K and marathon skate events! Cycling and swimming, then, will be what the grandfathers watch! People will watch only to see the 'recks'!... Just like they watch car racing!The decks will probably be 5ft.Carbon fiber w/ detachable nose and swivel tails and with rails to increase and decrease wheels base. 15-17mph will be a slow time for the 1 k...etc.. See! I told you all I was probably the biggest "dreamer" of you all! However, a dream is terrible, if only a dream. I want to see these dreams reality! And I, like many of you..are working hard for it! But,of course... having fun all the while!
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Pump Wheels/Formulas
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On 12/16/2005 matze
wrote in from
Germany
(195.125.nnn.nnn)
Chris, do you have some pictures about the ZigZags for us? (maybe those lovely renderings)
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thanks!!
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On 12/15/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Al - appreciate the very cool surprise! Sounds like you've been firmly entrenched in this surf-truck design for quite some time, very impressive. I really like the double-pivot idea, achieving complex motion with simple design, that's the ticket. I'd be so interested in a prototype truck pivot part if you are really able to do that. I could swap stuff out if you've got any request I can meet, got a few 'extra' trucks at the moment. And I really like your comment on getting kids on 'em, I think if the little tykes take out a surfing/carving deck right from the start, they'd get hooked for life.
I also hope someday we'll all be hooking up at an event, lets keep it in mind next year!
And wow, thanks both Al and Eric for the comments on my site! I've got many thanks to return to the skate community this year, but seeing this LDP addiction taking off is the best.
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Thank you, Al!
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On 12/15/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Al, that is a very generous offer.
I was not really trying to get you to give us trucks or parts.
I'm just really interested in what you're doing.
It sounds like you are quite a truck engineer in addition to being an excellent pumper.
I'll send you an e mail, and if you're serious I would love nothing more than to try out what you can send. I am very excited about this, actually.
It's great to share ideas with other like minded people.
It's a really good group here. Hopefully we can schedule a pump/skog/skump fest
in a central location that we could all make it too. I'd love to meet and skate with all of you. Thanks - Eric.
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awesome, I'm in!
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On 12/15/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Al, what a kind offer - I'd so love to experiment with your pumping truck prototypes.
I just got back from measuring and marking the Trap. And was just about to head out a second time today to skate the sprint pump.
But first I'll send an email off to you.
cheers!
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odds n ends
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On 12/15/2005
Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
OK Silversurfer...I'm going to look around for some old inserts that might be lying around that you can play around with. I'll make sure they have the small pivots and cups so you can insert them into a Indy/venture/Krux type truck if you have one lying around. This is because your interest and curiosity won't go away. I'll also look for some more that I can send to Peters and maybe Erin..if they want them. However, since these are not the Sidewinders, I would prefer that you don't refer to them as such in any critiques or posts..but rather as a prototype double pivot truck..etc..which they are. Also, I'd like to send these only for the purpose of furthuring the pumping aspect of the sport...as this is my primary goal. Hence, any reference to these trucks are better mentioned here, as compared to Silverfish forums...which seems to have only a few skaters interested in Pumping..much less..LD pumping.
Anyway..E-mail me with your address and I'll try to get some prototype inserts to the three..Silversurfer, Peters, and Erin...If any want them. I'll also send a couple extra parts so that you can insert more than 1 insert into a truck..and make a 3 kingpin rear truck if you are interested. I'll do this to save time...because I really think Silversurfer will begging for an extra...real soon! But then again....like Peters says.."we can dream!" And I'm probably the biggest dreamer of you all! But dreaming makes for some real fine skateboarding....when you finally get 'the set-up'! You can contact me at awlms@hotmail.com and I'll try to get them out..by..uhh...Christmas??
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Paved Wave
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On 12/15/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
For anyone who still hasn't seen it...check out one of my very favorite websites - www.pavedwave.com .
Al I'd really like to hear more about your trucks and your set ups.
I know practice, training and endurance are going to be the critical factors in how fast and far we can skate. And I'm going to work on that when the weather breaks (probably not till spring). But I'm an equipment geek and not being able to skate much only fuels my equipment imagination. I'm always trying to figure out the ultimate set up for some form of skating or other.
My skills dont really justify all the equipment, but it makes it more fun for me anyway.
If you could tell us anything about the development of the sidewinders such as how the idea came about or what your involvement was it would be super cool.
I know you cant tell us much about future designs, but please share what you can. Maybe you could post pics of some of your older non seceret set ups.
What is the story of sector 9 and gullwing colloborating on this?
Do you have any contacts that can help us get just the trucks and not the complete? Thanks - Eric
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Paved wave & misc
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On 12/15/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Peters, I'm glad you mentioned the 'Paved Wave' site...because I had not seen it before! Very impressive!! Also, everything you are doing, to try to spread pumping and distance riding, is what I have been trying to do, both in the SF Bay Area and also here in Santo Domingo, where I am currently living. Fortunately I have the 2003 Pan American Games skate track near by..and really, pretty much to myself, except for some occasional kids on roller blades. Anyway your enthusiasm is great! As I posted before...I really thought ,for about 2 years, that I was the only one doing any sort of long distances, and only in the last month or two have I been 'enlightened' by this site! Now I see that I am a real beginner!! Butthe real hang-up I think is not pumpstyle,and equipment.. but practice time and endurance. However, you and the others are very inspiring..and its good to see that pump racing/cruising/skogging is becoming more and more popular. Currently, I am working on some new truck designs that are intended to make pumping easy for not only strong skaters, but new riders and women and children in particular. Unfortunately, I can't divulge too much info on the set-ups at this time, but they are somewhat promising, and I continue to improve them on a day to day basis. The systems are also patent-pending in various countries, so this furthur adds to my reservation for full scale promotion before they're finished. However, I can say that when the time is right, you and some of the riders on this site(and your wives and children!) can be the first critics of my new designs.. and I won't hesitate to send out free demo's to those of you who want them. However...I think I might not be ready until the up coming summer, or so. Anyway, when I am doing my Trap racing and distance riding in the future...it will almost always be on my most recent edition of the trucks that I am currently designing. So if my times increase significantly, it should be an indication that the trucks are getting better and better! Anyway, that's the scoop on what I'm doing here in Santo Domingo, for those, like you, Peters, Silversurfer, and maybe a few others.. seem to be curious about.
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re - other trap distances!
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On 12/14/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey silversurf, now you're quoting that pump and push division stuff straight off my 'pavedwave' pages!! (thx) That list is something Gareth, Munson and I tossed around a couple years ago when we were brainstorming races that might work on the Velodrome.
Dong suggested a 4-man relay which sounded cool. And -- if we had unlimited funding we'd call it the "Cyberdrome" where instead of steep banks, have the ends of the track dip down into bowls you can pump speed out of back into the flat straightaways. Hey we can dream can't we??
IMHO, good setups are pretty much hard duros (84-92) and GS-length (36") lightweight decks. Check the top Cyber listings - most everyone's still on 70mm-74mm wheels.
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Chaput on Pumping Equipment
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On 12/14/2005 Eric
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
"On 7/31/2004 Chris Chaput wrote in from United States (66.116.xxx.xxx)
I think that it will be interesting to see what kind of equipment will be used in a fast, unlimited pump-fest. When you're riding a bike, it's easy to get up to speed in a low gear but as you go faster and faster, you lose the ability to pedal that fast and you have to change to a higher gear.
I'm able to pump my speedboards even though they have very slow turning trucks, big wheels and a long wheelbase. It takes a number of good strong pushes but once you get moving, it's very stable feeling - like using high gear on your bike when going down hill. I'm guessing that the fastest pumpers will overcome the sluggish start of a longer wheelbase and larger wheel and enjoy the stability of the "high gear" that kicks in about 15mph. Lastly, aerodynamics will play a big role in top end speed because our upright pumping stance becomes a parachute if we don't lose the baggy clothes and protective gear. That's why Mollica and I shave the tops of our heads..."
So that's what Chaput thinks, what do the rest of you think the ideal set up would be for the trap and for the other distances that I mentioned below?
What is the ideal wheel size, duro and shape for pumping and/or pushing speed?
Wheels that I think would be good for this; grippins, 76mm flywheels, hot spots, retro zig zags.
Comments? Suggestions on equipment or wheel choices/duro's?
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Other Trap Distances....
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On 12/14/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
I'd like to see some other distance times/records added to the trap games.
How about adding some of these;
PUMP DIVISION
- 1/4 mile race
- 1/4 mile 'steeplechase' -- cones on the straightaways
- 1 mile race
- 1 mile, 4-man relay (4x400m)
- 3 mile race
- cyber slalom
- ramp-start tight slalom
PUSH DIVISION
- 1/4 mile, 1 mile, 3 mile and 7 mile races, pushing, pump, skogging, it's all good!
- the trap 176 foot speed sprint race
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post times on the Trap page!
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On 12/14/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
To some of you this is obvious but what Eric posted is the Trap info from the link here on ncdsa:
http://www.ncdsa.com/the_trap.asp
I'm curious, since only 44ft times have been posted so far, when the 88 or 176 distances are posted are they all in the same list? Cool to see the new stuff coming out Chris!
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kilometres per hour?
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric, thanks for all the info on the Trap.
Is there any chance of getting a chart for conversions from seconds to kmph?
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Zig Zags
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On 12/14/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
...surely some of us here can help test 'pump' these new wheels for you....ha, ha, ha....
good work Chris, thanks for keeping us posted.
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How to Pump