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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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carvers, pins etc
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On 3/2/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
The devils advocate stuff is great Chris, I think the CX could use more technical scrutiny. The benefit I get from them is not dead-stop pump gears (although those *are* useful on inclines) but that it has a good 12-15 mph maintenance gears.
It feels to me as if the CX's horizontal swivel action relies more on the pump energy coming from the front truck/bushings and less from the spring/snap of the deck's camber. In other words a CX/deck combination's pumping power feels like 60%(truck)/40%(deck) whereas a SplitFire/deck might be 40%/60%. Carver's C7 pump by comparison is almost exclusively based on this swivel action -- which is great for slow stylish surfing, but tops out its high speed very quickly. The C7 is a fun parking lot / skate park truck, but will never keep up in a race. So the CarverCX strikes the balance between these two "extremes" having both the horizontal swivel for an easy cruising pump, and the vertical / traditional pump for acceleration, control, and relying a little more on the power of the deck's snap. (Pls tell me that makes a little sense??)
I would still choose my SplitFire over CarverCX on a GS hill as I know that GS will have tights that require fast responsive pumps, plus the race is short and that level of pumping's easily maintained for a minute or so, but not for up to 2 hours like on a marathon!
You're right about the shorter hangar not busting pins as often, back to physics eh? That was back on Randal 150's -- and truth be told I'm sure some of it was due to the extremely sloppy bushings and contact between pin and hangar.
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Carvering
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On 3/2/2006
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
So what's the Carver like after you get it up to speed? I've ridden one on carpeting at a trade show and yes, I could pump it from a dead stop. My question is, what's the value of being able to pump a board from a dead stop? Is it like "cheating" to push when you start your journey? Do you need it like a granny gear for steeper hills? Wouldn't you suffer then, on the ensuing downhill sections?
I'm know that I'm playing the devil's advocate here, so don't take offense. A while ago, eXkate torsion trucks got quite a buzz because you could carve inside an 8 foot circle on a four foot board. I always wondered how slow you'd have to be going and why anyone would to do that. Beacuse you can, maybe?
On the subject of kingpin stress and/or breakage, it seems to me that if you had narrower trucks, softer bushings, and a shorter wheelbase, you wouldn't be putting the same load on the kingpin, and a grade 8 replacement would be a 50 cent part that could last you for years. But truth be told, we shouldn't be dicking around with any truck that is made for pumping that has a cantilevered kingpin. It's just asking for trouble. When you really think about it, the LDP application requires the most high tech equipment available. This board is all about long term efficiency, and you can't find that in a bloated cheap-skate. And not unlike slalom, we're still trying to figure out what works the best without breaking the bank.
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cramping relief...
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On 3/2/2006
T. O.
wrote in from
United States
(12.148.nnn.nnn)
Try some of the foam wedge material and stick a customized
thin piece to the deck to kind of fill in under your arch
Might work if your wearing thinner soled shoes
like Vans...
Or maybe some store bought in-shoe orthotics might help if you're wearing heavier
rubber.
Just thinkin aloud, really enjoy this thread, Tod
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foot arch pain experience
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On 3/2/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Here are a few things that contribute to foot cramps over long distances. This is from experiences, especially having stepped off the deck after a couple marathons and being almost completely unable to walk for 5-10 minutes.
- Having the front of your foot angled up from concave, exercising a whole different set of arch muscles than if on a flatter deck. If concave, I would steer clear of the kind that turns up quickly at the edges of the deck. I like a wider, gradual concave starting from the center of the deck, if any. LBL's have a nice smooth concave for example.
- The subconscious tightening of your foot muscles, putting more effort of your pumping into your ankles and feet, rather than your legs, torso and upper body.
- Shoes with incorrect arch support, you need to figure out what shoes work best for you. What works for me perfectly in running doesn't translate over to LDP well. I've found a certain type of 'ES' shoe and a particular Vans shoe feel great even after miles - while a couple other skate shoe brands almost always lead to pain. Munchh mentioned running shoes, I'd advise to stay clear but that's my personal pref. I like having a flatter platform ON my foot like a skate shoe, to control the deck under my foot.
- Like SS said, longer distances, endurance, riding... increasing distance over time!
- Softening up the ride underneath - either soft risers or softer duro wheels, or sometimes both. This is the big speed versus momentum trade-off equation you've gotta figure out, based on how smooth the trails are you normally expect to ride.
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Pumpin' Trucks & Slalom Decks
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On 3/2/2006
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Chris I use a 36" Roe Eldorado with 78a Gumballs on the back (with Original S6 truck) and 76mm 78a Flywheels in the front (with a Carver CX truck).
The Roe has a touch of camber and a smidgen of flex, very much like what you described.
The thing with the Carver CX front truck is that it is sooo much easier to pump than any other truck (with the possible exception of the Sidewinder).
I can EASILY pump from a dead stop on them, which I find impossible on any other truck. The pumping action is so much different.
I like the 160mm size. Stable but out turns anything but an Original.
The different front and rear wheels are to even out the difference in width between the 160mm front truck and the 150mm back truck.
This set up is very effective for pumping.
For long distance I would want a longer, wider nose.
I find that the toes of my front foot hang over the edge of the deck which seems to the cause of my foot cramping up after an hour or so of non stop no touch pumping. Or maybe that's not the cause at all. Maybe I'm just not used to using my foot muscles like that.
Does anybody have any thoughts about the foot cramping issue?
Would a deck with a longer, wider nose help?
Or do I simply need to build up my tolerance for non stop pumping?
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CX for distance
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On 3/2/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
One reason I moved over to the non-slalom Carver CX setup and stuck with it throughout 2005, over the reversed kingpin setups -- is that after hundreds of miles I haven't yet snapped a front kingpin on the CX (though have snapped a couple rear pins.) Whereas on the Randals or Gullwings, even in flipped config, with really loose bushings, would still snap after 100+ miles. And the loose, surfy feel of the CarverCX still works great on the longest distance flat trail pumps. The distance pumps don't usually require lightning-speed reactions around tight cones -- so wider hangars don't seem to be a huge handicap, though I've been using Splits lately because I do like them for controlled accelerations from time to time.
Btw, some of us had a thread going on another forum recently about narrowing-down the CX hangar to something more slalom-like, not sure what that would feel like...
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newer skumping setups!!
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On 3/2/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Chris, my next setup for the 'gear' page is the one I've been commuting to work on. A modded down RoeRacing 41", with 29" wheelbase, Split-Fire on front and Tracker off-set on the rear. Basically its a MSGS!! (Mondo Super GS) No Radikal front trucks for Long Distance trail Pumping and all its varied terrain ... read the 'Trucks' forum for why, but I think you already know why.
Most of the LDP setups *are* slalom setups, just sized up a couple notches. And the reason for this longer wheelbase, and larger wheels is that I've found this to be the sweet spot for maintaining (not just peaking at occasionally) a "high" flatland speed of 12-13 mph. The GPS has been great for pointing that kinda thing out.
The Avilas still treating me well for the extreme asphalt conditions, though I'm currently also set up with 75a Gummies on another trail board. The Zags so far are great for skumping if the asphalt is golf-course smooth, but once it gets rocky, I want something lower than the 80's. (of course, I'm loving the Zags for slalom.) It sounds like the future is looking PINK!! ;-)
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Narrow Minded?
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On 3/2/2006
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I've been lurking in here every once in a while, and it seems to me that many of the trucks that are being considered are just too darm wide. I can't help but wonder why anyone would use trucks different than what is being raced on in slalom. I've been using a 90mm to 110mm hangers on my GS and Hybrid boards because they turn better than wider trucks AND they provide better traction than wider trucks which tend to push in a pump or a turn. I use offset rear trucks from 30 to 35 degrees which provide a lot of forward drive (instead of oversteering the rear) when pumping. My fronts range from 45 degrees (Super G or 6 wheeler) to 60 degrees for Tight. I use tall, soft, high-rebound bushings which makes side to side pumping a breeze. Bushings alone can make a huge difference in the way a truck feels and performs. Removing slop from your trucks also adds traction and efficiency to every turn. You can haul ass on a board with a 21" inner-hole to inner-hole wheelbase without stability issues.
So how come no one seems to be using slalom setups? What kind of pumping are y'all doing?
If I had to guess as to what I'd like pumping across the planet, it would probably be about a 30" to 36" wood/composite deck with a little concave and a little flex, a 90mm Radikal front truck wedged between 50 to 60 degrees, and a 90mm Split-Fire rear hanger on a 35 degree Randal Downhill baseplate, 70mm Retro ZigZags in the Lime 80a Reflex formula, and Biltin Bearings. Maybe the future Pink 77a Gumballs or Retro Lime/Lemon Gumballs (80a/83a) would be a killer tank-like pumper.
I have to think that maintaining good roll-speed with a decent sized high rebound wheel and efficient pumping from a firm high-traction wheel is the call. Wider trucks and longer wheelbases may be more stable and/or more comfortable, but they can only be efficient at high speeds.
Comments? Suggestions?
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more slide talk
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On 3/2/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh don't let wheel duro stop you from learning slide. When I got seriously into longboarding I felt to be safe I had to be able to slide whatever deck I was skating to a controlled stop. I learned on my DH with 74a flywheels! I could bring the board to a fast stop in a very short distance from 30 - 35 kmph. That's my claim to fame and I don't really skate those speeds or that intensity any more but it is good to know that I can stop a board if I have to.
Carving off speed is handy but sometimes there just isn't the time or road width to do so. I think it is essential to be able to slide a longboard. Get those gloves happening and sprinkle in a little slide practice everytime you are skating any sort of hill.
And of course in the meantime enjoy the saftey and fun of skumping.
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slide
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On 3/2/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
I did start to learn, it was more amusing than anything, but then the weather got bad, i had an opp and a few 180's grabbing the board was as far as i got!
I never wanted to slide my soft wheels either, so put a board together with 92a flashbacks for learning and rode my other boards on a hill that has a really long flat run off.
But now i can carve off speed with the loose trucks, so i'll get back to the sliding when the weather is alot better and i've made some better gloves.
I'm just sticking with the skumping for now.
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safety stop - SLIDE!!
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On 3/2/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, you need to learn to slide! Comes in handy as a high speed stop.
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BIGGER BUY THE DAY
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On 3/2/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Yeah your right, i'm not letting anything go anymore, the boardrobe is nearly full!
I could never beleive how loose my friend ran his trucks, i always wanted the feel my bushings and because i was heavy thought that was good and i was mostly riding paths and single car width roads, so looking back my carving was really PANTS, no wonder i got so scared of the speed i was getting towards the end of last summer, my carves were getting longer/bigger, and i was in drop knee more and more, i didn't know how to stop the speed wobble, so my rear truck just got tighter and running off became a matter of life or death!!
I've got far more control now, its mad that i rode my boards like that, if only i had known about wedging, those originals might have been fine, i've got the big ones now, but they are on the tails of a popsikle deck with 109 off road wheels, nice on grass hills!
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skate gear regrets
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On 3/2/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
" Mabie i was a little haisty in selling those 'originals' i HATED so much? "
I hear you Munnch. Isn't it funny that as we progress and change our style we start to discover as aspect of a deck or trucks of wheels that we didn't realize or appreciate earlier? I have done that myself a few times and sadly wished I still had a piece of gear, that at the time I sold it, just didn't seem to suit my skating at all! Crazy.
If you are anything like me, you just want to have the equipment that really seems dialed in and is going to get used a lot. So out go all the bits and pieces that were, in you mind at least, failed experiments. Sigh. I envy those of you that have the space and patience to hold onto gear with the foresight to know that some time down the road it may come in very handy in an application you couldn't have anticipated earlier.
My sadest 'sale' was my Insect Big Bug with is sweet flex and custom grip job. It just felt so heavy and awkward with the high risers necessary to avoid wheelbite on the surf style deck. Now I know that deck would've been a great LDP'er and the height wouldn't have bothered me at all in that style of skating......oh well, live and learn.
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hmmm
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On 3/2/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Well, i'm not sure if ive gone soft enough on the front bushings, i'm still finding the pumping a bid like hard work, the back of the board just rolls really because the angle on the rear truck is not far off horizontal, i did have it with a higher angled wedge, but it rocked so well i would need cut outs in the deck, so went back to this one, the noskoolz are one of my favorite wheels right now, they are very quick with loads of grip, it also carves great, cant help doing big sweeping s carves, swinging my arms and twisting feels great.
Since riding this and the smaller slalom type i made, i've found my old favorite setups just dont cut it anymore, they dont turn quick enough and are more suited to going in straight lines, i never saw myself as a bomber, but i spose i was.
This skumpin has really brought my ability on.
Mabie i was a little haisty in selling those 'originals' i HATED so much?
Loose trucks rock!
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Munchh's latest set up
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On 3/1/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, that set up looks and sounds good. Do tell us how it skates.
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Brrrr! Not fair!
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On 2/28/2006 Mr Zogs (Sean C.)
wrote in from
United States
(167.206.nnn.nnn)
Good grief! Its freakin freezing...
Or well, maybe its the same as when I left... for Maui and O'ahu...
Well, anywho, I got back from O'ahu today... The North Shore absolutely RULED. Definitely plan on moving there eventually...
Gotta finish up this freakin fibreflex pumping setup! Its killin me to see it sitting there.
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My latest setup.
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On 2/28/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Here is what i am wearing myself out on at the moment:
36" birch ply, its a deck i made that has gone from a 45" down to this with various setups tested on it, hense all the holes, its a good wide platform for any style of riding, this was the prototype for the boards i sold on e-bay, so i love it alot.
Front truck is a 50* RII base plate with a 160mm downhill hanger, wedged high, and ive since fitted kiro's, its got a great angle this way.
Rear is the opposite, 30* downhill baseplate, 180mm RII hanger flipped, de-wedged, standard Randal downhill bushings, it barely turns anymore but rocks real nice.
I using 65mm noskoolz cause they are centre set to keep the width down and because i dont think im anywhere good enough to try bigger yet.
Its really stable and also carves like a dream.
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Wobbly legs!!
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On 2/28/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Al,
you lot make me realise just how far behind i am when you drop milages into the chat. Personally after 2 miles when i step off i tend to want to collapse! But i also know i am possibly the most unfit skumper on the planet right now, my biggest ache is always my feet, if i get in the right position its great and no pain, but if i'm slightly off with my foot placement it hurts like hell real quick, i've also found that i cant wear certain training shoes, my addidas shell toe extreem have a great instep and are great for crusing and carving , but as soon as i pump..ooouch. I've got a pair of big chunky Vans, that are a real solid shoe and the instep is pretty flat, these dont cause me the same trouble??
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LD pumping, and fatigue
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On 2/28/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
One topic not discussed much here is the fatigue that comes after LD pumping. For my part, I was pretty surprised how poorly my legs functioned after doing a multi-mile ride,non-kick and non-stop..about 23kilometers. Even on shorter rides, sometimes when I stop to drink water,or adjust my trucks, my legs can barely function..and it's probably akin to the "sea legs" that sailors get from being in an unstable boat for long periods of time. However, now I know that these wobbly legs are a bit dangerous, because when riding LD there is a tendency to think everything is normal, that is..until you step off the board! So, I think its good to remember, that after various miles pumping the board, if there is a need to make an emergency jump off the board, more than likely your legs aren't going to go exactly where you think they are! I always think of this when I'm doing LD pumps, just to be aware and ready for these unforeseen problems. Any other LD pumpers have anything to say? Or advice?
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Killer parks....again! : )
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On 2/24/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
James, I know what you mean about becoming addicted to the park type riding! When I first started riding a park near San Francisco a couple of years back, I remember riding till I was totally fatigued, to the point where I needed to tell myself "..Hey! Save it for another day! You can easily split your face open on the next run!..so let's stop now while we're still safe and sound!" Anyway, I think all aspects of the sport are great..but I really want to see these transition bowl/snake type parks spring up! It's kind of the fun of skiing without the need for snow! and thats the beauty of skateboarding! It's also why I feel, that when it grows a little more, the 'bigwigs' in the world..the Walt Disney types, are going to figure out that there might be some money to be made in developing much larger parks of this nature....somewhat akin to small ski resorts?
Anyway, we already discussed some of this a while back. However, I always like to think of the future possibilities..because it might someday make them more of a reality! By the way, if you get a chance, you might want to try the DPs at a park! They're great for pumping bowls!
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3-D pumping
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On 2/23/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Al its hard to describe the rush from that weightlessness at the crest of each turn, then compressing at the bottom to pick up speed for the next transition. I'm HOOKED!! I still pumped more between turns, whereas the 3rd skater in that vid (Hughes) reads the bowls, hits the curve perfectly and just shoots straight to the next. This park was like ABC's for him, he's normally tearing up huge gnarly pools and upside-down stuff. It was great to session early in the morning, owned the whole park for a couple hours!!
I don't think you could ever go too huge with the bowls, it just all has to balance out. To make an endless snake/pump park just keep in mind the balance, if you have a deeper pool at one end, like in this park, you gotta make some natural, clean lines to pump back up to the flatter portion -- you see Hughes doing that in this vid as well, and it IS a workout. One thing that will be tricky this year is balancing out the long distance stamina rides, the slalom sprint muscles, and this kind of all-around riding (discovered some new muscles the following day...) but cross-training is always great for keepin it fresh!!
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pumping the park!
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On 2/22/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Yeah man that looks cool,
I just hope the park they are building in my town is half as nice as that one.
It seems like you could keep going as long as your legs will let you, i've been looking for plans of what they are going to do with it, because i'd hate to think its not going to cater for anyone but popsickle kids?
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Great vid!
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On 2/21/2006 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Killer park James! I like how it's possible to transition between bowls, ramps etc. I wish more parks were like this! Seems like you can keep pumping/carving non-stop! Do you think it would be better to have some of the bowls on this type of park a little higher or deeper, or would that ruin the 'flow' of things, and make the transitions more difficult? Just curious if there are height limitations for the bowls and snake type runs on these types of parks?
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GPS + outer space distance boarding
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On 2/18/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Al and Munchh, early morning laps around the lake at -7 degrees Celsius today, I'm starting to think we ARE Aliens, or at least 100% certifiable. My ears and lungs got crispy and I learned just how far Munson and I have diverged on our pumping style over the winter. My front trucks have gotten tighter making hill climbing harder but sprints SO much faster, and Derek's setup was loooooooose and surfy, I could eat up hills on his board but, there's always that high-end speed trade off. Thats the greatest thing about gettin' out and trying out other setups, new discoveries every time.
And now of course I'm completely in geek-out data-crunching heaven with the Garmin GPS device!! Tracking commute and ride mileage is automatic this year. Altitude readings are spotty but the mph, pace charts and aerial maps are killer! I'll be adding future trail rides here as they increase!
Munchh, shot ya a mail, let's talk trucks and all else!
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How to Pump