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| Q&A: Dr David Hartman on Head Injuries (824 Posts)
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Legal helmets
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On 8/13/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Problem easily solved, Patio. Just take a "legal" helmet logo sticker and put it over the pro-tec logo. No cop could tell the difference. But be careful if you're sponsored by pro-tec, they may kick you off the team.
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"legal" helmets...
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On 8/13/2002 Patio
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
so I'd get a ticket for wearing a pro-tec?
there's some problems there.
I have 4 helmets, 3-protec, and one motorcycle helmet.
I'm gonna keep wearing my protec.
then again Judi(the Giro rep?) is giving away helmets and power bars over on the slalom forum.
I'd wear a Giro if she'd give me one. but I don't really like the feel of the hard, shapeless styrofoam type helmet liners. the softer foam grips my large, oddly shaped head nicely.
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Response to R
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On 8/13/2002
Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Dear R.,
When the law goes through, the skaters will only be allowed to wear 'legal helmets', that pass government safety standards. And those helmets that pass, therefore, will become the only ones offered for sale and also become much cheaper. This, in turn, will force companies to meet specifications in order to provide a legal hemet if they want to turn a profit and I know that, unless they are on crack, that they will do whatever it takes to sell their product so they comply with the new standards.
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protec helmets...
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On 8/13/2002 patio
wrote in from
(207.16.nnn.nnn)
"I believe" that a protec has good qualities for basic park and ramp riding.
downhillin'/slalom at 25mph+, get a motorcycle helmet.
in any MAJOR high speed/high impact crash, a helmet will help as a "slider" and cushion the head. if that slide goes headfirst into a brick wall or curb, etc...your neck will probably snap, negating the helmet's effectiveness anyway?
I think it is good to wear a helmet. promote helmets. a crappy Walmarket helmet(Mike McGill??what the...) will protect better than no helmet. duh.
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Helmets
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On 8/13/2002 SeanJohn
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
lbk -- what is the cause for your ignorance? From everything that I have read of yours it is stupidity! Learn how to spell. "rough" not "rouge". What do you do for a living? I guarantee that you don't pull in any more than a feeble $60,00 a year, you worthless moron! How stupid are you? and I hope that the bug up your ass dies!
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Pro-Tec jibes
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On 8/13/2002 R.
wrote in from
(156.40.nnn.nnn)
Dan- yeah, according to the BHSI (Bicycle helmet Safety Institute), www.bhsi.com the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Council) has tested and refused to certify pro-tec helmets to be acceptable/up to their safety standards-- now bear in mind this is for the soft foam lined ones... the ones that use "styrofoam" linings (BMX line) _are_ certified. To be fair to Duane, I don't think he ever said "don't wear Pro-Tec ever", he just said their skate model helmets don't protect as well as helmets that use "styrofoam" inner shells.
The fact , mon ami, is that they don't.
This doesn't mean that they don't provide some protection in most ramp/street situations, the protection is just not as good as it could be, with a very minor adjustment in production. It is also inadequate for impacts involving moderate to high speed, which is what the CPSC and SNELL testers are mostly interested in. May I also point out that most decent bike helmet manu's will replace crashed shells for free or for a reasonable fee.
I don't think it takes a genius to see that knees and heads are pretty different, even in terms of which you would rather have plowing into road gravel when wiping out. Maybe if Pro-Tec put as much foam in their helmets as there is in good ramp pads, then maybe it would be fine. It might start a new trend in hard-shell afros, which is pretty much what it would look like if you put that much foam into a shell.
As to the liability issue, I don't know the legality of it, but there are _plenty_ of companies making helmets that are not CPSC certified, or are still risky despite certification (see BHSI's evaluations). My guess would be it's a caveat emptor thing, and in a risky situation, if a helmet can be shown to have mitigated *some* damage and not fragmented into head-piercing shards, then the burden of blame for head injury will lie with the person undertaking the risk. It's also not like Pro-Tec is putting forward any claims about the protective capacities of their helmets, either. Companies are generally interested in maximizing profit, and if they can produce things for cheaper and weasel their way out of being responsible for shortcomings in their product or production process, then they will.
It's a really good and interesting question though. Any lawyers out there know anything about this? Maybe the bhsi would know.
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protec helmets
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On 8/13/2002 Patio
wrote in from
(207.16.nnn.nnn)
I took a nasty fall on a 12' vert ramp last year...frontside grind to hang-up on rollerblader(who sat on the edge of the ramp as I was riding).
this put me into a "flat spin" and I landed flat on my back, right on the flat, barely any transition to catch my fall...I slammed HARD. knocked the wind outta' me.
I was very aware of the plastic of the helmet smacking, the cushioning/cradling of my head by the foam. I felt no headach, or any pain associated with a head slam.
the helmet worked. (a Pro Tec "classic")
it is now retired.
p
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No protection in Protec?
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On 8/13/2002
Dan Hughes
wrote in from
(162.78.nnn.nnn)
Ok, So some people, such as Duane believe that Protec Helmets don't protect the users of such helmets. Now, if this were truely the case don't you think that the company would be pulling it's product in fear of a liablity suit?
I assume that there must be a consumers group that tested Protec helmets and found that they don't protect a persons head at all, hence the negative comments from people.
After the news gets out that dense foam doesn't protect one's head, the vert riders will throw their knee pads out and use styro-foam replacements, and replace them after each knee slide.
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lids, pads and kids
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On 8/9/2002
gavin
wrote in from
(195.194.nnn.nnn)
exactly who the preasure should be directed upon is a good, and possibly no win, debate. my belief is that you take a 70/30 approach with most of the effort aimed at the kids. if, as has been said already, you create peer pressure this then does your promotion for you. the 30% of effort is raing awarness with the parents, but as anyone in youth marketing knows, the young are increasingly the persuaders. your hope would be that the parents understanding of the need for further equipment justifys the spend based on the kids demand.
where does this sit with skateboards? in my view its amazing that pads and helmets are not compulsory in parks, and for the greater good, as i said earlier, the most important message is that its the industry's responsibility to pick up the word and spread it. if the 'pros' are seen wearing pads and helments no-doubt the kids will follow, this would generate huge amounts of peer preasure world wide, and as i also said earlier, why anyone can't see this HUGE opportunity to sell further product i really don't know.
do we lead by example? well i suppose its time to update my 20 year old sh@gged rectors (held together, and in place, with duct tape)!! : )
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helmet cops
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On 8/8/2002 sk8nwolf
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
You are bordering on the asinine, now lbk...but the theme is the most important part...yes parents are responsible for their kids, not the cops.
Enough peer pressure caused a lot of parents to make their kids wear helmets on their bikes, so where is the difference? And think how many accidents there were with bikes before
parents started listening? Now for the hard part...how do you get to the parents to listen instead of taking away all their kids' fun?
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helmet "shatter"
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On 8/8/2002 Duane
wrote in from
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Helmets like almost every bike helmet, as well as ones for snowboarding, etc. like the Giro Nine (or Semi, same thing) consist of expanded polystyrene beads which do most of the deceleration of your melon, thin "soft" foam on the very inside mostly for comfort and fit, and a "shell" of thermofomed sheet plastic like polystyrene or ABS. The sheels of these helmets are there to look good, and give minor protection to the polystyrene to prevent abrasion, make them easier to clean, and did I mention look good ? That shell does little or nothing to protect your head. Yeah, it splits, cracks, breaks, or shatters upon hard impact. That does not mean these are bad helmets, quite the opposite. The expanded polystyrene stays intact and does all the work. It also does not rebound from the impact, so the helmet is ruined after a fall of this type.If you don't value your head, get a molded shell Protec with nothing but soft foam, these are a joke. If you do, get something like the Giro helmets with the expendable shell. I should also mention that the chin straps on the Gira are the best I've seen, comfortable enough to actually use; how many kids have you seen with the strap hanging loose?
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lids
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On 8/8/2002 longboardbuddha
wrote in from
(194.117.nnn.nnn)
like i listened to what my parents had to say....if i did i would spend my days playing video games safe in the house....peer pressure gets kids to wear helmets and protective gear and the peer group are the switched on guys and gals who rip the park...save a groms head you be the guy who tells them to wear a lid.
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Helmet Criminals
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On 8/7/2002 lbk
wrote in from
(63.215.nnn.nnn)
The next time I see a kids playing baseball without helmets, I'm going to call the cops. Those crazy kids should get a big fat fine and we could by gloves with the money so we can give out more fines for kids playing baseball without helmets. Oh and sand lot football and no helmets, then I'll call the cops again. Maybe one day we can get rid of all rouge sports like football, baseball, and basketball. Just the other day some kid threw a heart attack playing football. They should pass a law outlawing such dangerous sports………
Damn, let the Law Enforcement Officers do real jobs like fighting crime. Why do we have to make criminals out of young skateboarders?
If a parent thinks a skatepark is a cheap babysitter and that kid rides without a helmet and gets hurt, the parents should be held liable. Not the skatepark, or the county or the cops.
If you want kids to skate with helmets, the responsibility is up to the parents and nobody else. Just because some cop forces your kid to wear a helmet in the only park he ever gets to skate, do you really thing that he will wear one skating on the street? I think not.
Teach the kids how to wear helmets. Parents should hang at the skatepark with their child to make sure he rides with a helmet. In time, maybe the parent can trust the kid to skate by himself with his helmet. Then and only then will you see kids starting to pick up a helmet to skate the streets.
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helmets that shatter
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On 8/7/2002
jjeff
wrote in from
(47.230.nnn.nnn)
I read about a serious head injury that was posted on the slalom forum. The scary part is that it was reported that the rider's helmet shattered upon impact. Suprising to me, one poster mentioned that the helmet was designed to shatter! That doesn't seem like much head protection to me.
If I'm riding at speed on my board and I am thrown off with my head toward a very hard object like the street, I would not think I would want my helmet to only protect me for the initial force of impact by shattering, then let my unprotected skull deal with the remaining post-shatter force. Wouldn't a helmet that crushes but not shatters cause less damage, especially if there potential for a second object to slide/bounce into, like a curb?
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lids
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On 8/7/2002 longboardbuddha
wrote in from
(194.117.nnn.nnn)
its funny that story about standing out in the crowd...at our local skatepark its a harshly enforced rule that even if you are standing on a ramp watching you have to wear full pads and a helmet...so it gets to a stage where kids see their peers wearing safety gear and thus it is cool to wear it...so theres a groove running through the park that anybody not wearing gear becomes the subject of ridicule prior to the staff throwing them out on their ass.the upshot of this rule is that say 70% of the kids that skate street style in the city center all wear full pads and helmets....
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helmets, knees and a story
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On 8/6/2002
gavin
wrote in from
(195.194.nnn.nnn)
helmets. agree thoroughly that the prob with helmets and other safety gear for the kids is that its not considered cool, but, if you look at BMX (esp dirt jumping) kneepads and helmets are an integral part of the 'uniform'. now why a skate manu can't see the untapped potential of that market i don't know. heck, what pro would'nt wear full protection for enough dollar?
knees. if its any help, i suffered from sore knees for years but over the last year i've started regular'ish stretching at night and before going surfing. just a simple 'salutation to the sun' but its worked wonders for me.
story (about helmets, aplogies if i've posted this before). no one at the indoor park i go to wears helmets or pads, and when i decided it was time to wear a helmet (i always wore one in the 80's at the concrete park i frequented) i had real problems making myself do it. it was a pure ego thing. so chatting to the wife one day i told her about this and said 'the problem is i don't want to stand out.' her reply... 'you're 36, you're at least 20 years older than 98% of the kids there, don't you think you stand out enough already?'. and since then its never bothered me to wear one!
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various...
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On 8/5/2002
Patio Mendino
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
I am usually wearing more pads that all the other skaters combined, when I go to the local no-pads skatepark. Most of them put their helmets on when they see the cops coming.
Knees: I run a few miles 3 times a week. the pounding of running will "strengthen" your knees for the pounding of skating. Cycling is great to strengthen the muscle groups.
when running, your knees take about 3x your body weight in force. that's "light" stepping. A jump off/run out from slalom or park riding will produce many times that force.
that is why so many oldschoolers are breaking their legs from running outta' stuff...that and an extra 25lbs...
p
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homer's head
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On 8/3/2002 snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
yeah, but where's the blue crayon?
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Helmets
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On 8/3/2002 Dr. Hibbert
wrote in from
(24.197.nnn.nnn)
"Not wearing a helmet is the first sign of brain damage"
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Helmet Laws
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On 8/1/2002 msk
wrote in from
(172.138.nnn.nnn)
The biggest obstacle to getting kids to wear helmets is the "cool factor". Look at all the magazines and videos. With the exception of shots taken at vert ramps in parks, you'll never see anyone wearing one. I've even seen some of the magazines advise kids NOT to wear a helmet when skating at the local park ("...but keep it handy, just in case the police show up...").
At every public park I've skated in SoCal, helmets and pads are required. And quite often, I'm the only person wearing them. I know guys who rack up several hundred dollars in tickets per month, but still won't wear them. Because it's not cool. Until Thrasher and TWS start showing more helmets, it's an uphill battle...
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Bloody bad habits
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On 8/1/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
PaulW, you may want to reconsider the ibuprofen antidote to alcohol. Both increase the possibility of GI (gastrointestinal) bleeding and both together increase the odds more than each one individually. Food for thought as it were. . .
drD
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Antique knees
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On 8/1/2002
PaulW
wrote in from
(194.117.nnn.nnn)
Thanks...real food for thought. Great!
I didn't think of weights as being a positive: But, I guess the gonzo approach to exercise should be modified as one gets older.
Ibuprofen is an interesting one...I genuinely do take that, but only before I'm going out *boozing*. Never thought to use it before a skate session.
Finally, I realise that there's an element of "snake oil" with stuff like Glucosamine (and other fish oils), but it has definitely quietened the "creaking" sound of my knees.
Thanks again.
P
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knee pain & strengthening
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On 8/1/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Knee pain, blech. OK, here's some crackpot suggestions:
Ice your knees after a session. It will help reduce any swelling
you may experience.
Ibuprufen, take it. I know people who use it *before* they
do leg work but to me it's not such a great idea. Pain's
a good indicator that says,"Stop." Without that, you could
do more harm than good.
If you have access to weight equipment, do leg extensions
with LIGHT weight. This helps strengthen the muscles around
the knee joint for support. Glucosamine won't change whatever
degradation your knee joints already have, but some people
claim that it prevents further weakening of all their joints.
There is a technique for wrapping your knees with an
ace bandage. You'll see pro athletes I football, basketball )
doing this all the time. They put a pounding on their knees
constantly. Um, I can't remember what it's called right now
but starts with an 'M' I think. Run a search. Whatever
you do, don't wrap too tightly. ( I've done this and it
*does* help, but even done right it will feel slightly
restrictive at first. )
The issue of knee braces, from what I understand, is still
up in the air in the medial community. Some orthopedists
claim it will help your cap from shifting too much while
doing sports, others say they don't make any difference.
I don't know. For me, it's too cumbersome particularly for
skating.
Bicycling is great for your heart and lungs and for your
legs, some. But strength training with weights will make
a BIG difference for your legs. People underestimate this
sometimes but look at the training regimen of competitive
bicyclists and you'll see they weight train their legs.
Knees really take a pounding throughout our lives. Being
flexible ( read: SRETCH ) and having good muscle tone
will help slow down, and sometimes altogether alleviate,
certain physiological problems due to normal wear and tear.
Hope this helps!
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Old knees
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On 8/1/2002
PaulW
wrote in from
(217.33.nnn.nnn)
I know this is "Wear-a-helmet Central", but I couldn't really think of where else to post.
I've been cycling for the last five years and this has done wonders for my general fitness and stamina. Since rediscovering skating (after my 10 year old son got into it) , I've been out as often as I can and have found that my knees are starting to get very sore after long sessions in the streets: As a kid, I'd skate endlessly without problems, so I know it's my age, but: I'd really like to hear about other older skaters' methods for easing the aches: Diet... exercise... gritted teeth.
I've been taking cod liver oil and glucosamine, and that seems to be easing things. I don't want to be an old arthritic cripple. Any crackpot tips appreciated.
Cheers, P.
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Heads in the Lobby
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On 7/31/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
(12.249.nnn.nnn)
Just a reminder for anyone involved in helmet law promotion or "free helmets" for needy kids, etc., to post email or other addresses in this section for readers to add their support.
thanks, drD
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