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Down Hill
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On 7/9/2004 EE
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
Thank You Don!
For what you have done for speed skateboarding in general. Even thou I own the photos of Roger Hickey and others racers at Signal Hill & your lay down & skate car. I know you were the original owner at one time and I only own them with respect,to you and those who gave it there all (no fear).
Growing up and living 10 minutes from Signal Hill , I was at every race right there on the side lines. "At the time I was riding for Sims skateboards" and Tom Sims felt it was unsafe for any of us to ride. With no money to purchase leathers we sat on the side and watched.
One thing I will always remember was watching Don shoot the hill come thru the 1st stop sigh and lay down the foot brakes and walk away while others were blowing thru at full speed with parachute mal function and brakes that failed with crap boards just eating s#@! big time... ( as he said Roger Hickey was doing 1st) I will try and shoot a photo of A Don Baumea secrete brake in the next few days. I'm off back to Hawaii Wed so I'm out of play time . In my archives I have about 300-600 slides of every Signal Hill Race never seen before. I'm Coming in on a red eye Fri before La Costa and will try to bring them to La Costa on Sat to share with ya all.Thanks ED
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Downhill
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On 7/9/2004 Don Baumea
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
Great photo of Roger Hickey at Signal Hill 1977 on Saturday morning for an illeagle practice session. Race was on Sunday. If you had told me as I took this photo that I would be doing this speed stuff I would have said you are nuts, no way could that evere happen. But i few minutes later when RH made another pass, he did something that changed my lif completely. At the moment he entered the timing area he sat up and stopped so suddenly but smoothly like it was nothing. At that moment I realized a person , doing what he did , could stop at any point on any hill. That was not possible in a stand up speed run. That was the moment I got into downhill Within six months I was exceeding the speed of the fastest official skateboarder and skatecar at La Costa's Black Hill. In 1978, I was the first rider down the hill, because as Jim O'Mahoney explained to me, nobody wants to go first. Imagine to my surprise when my first run down Signal Hill was made, I stopped successfully, and watched the next four riders crash. I did not know what to make of this . Either I was a rookie who was pretty good, or just really lucky. I had that sick feeling I would find out in the second round. My next run , because I ran both Stand up and modified class, was a laydown run so it was quite awhile until I made another Stand up run and by then many big name riders had crashed. Well, as it turned out I was not too bad.
Someone asked if they could have permission to post my photos. Sure, but if you E-mail me ( Voyagerwsr@aol.com) I will give you my best copy. I will be unavailable for about a month as I am going off line during my move. Good luck with the Reunion.
Drafting experiment for stand up and laydown record attempt. psycologically too fast, met and exceeded expectations, by a lot.
My last race and win, 1990 the Daytona was what I called a stage II design. The duct tape betrays what was the fastest crash in 13 years, 45 min prior to the win and retirement from competition. But not the need for speed.....
Cheers, Don
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La Costa
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On 7/9/2004 La Costa Boys Racing
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
John Hughes,
We're excited to have you guys oa the race site on Saturday the 24th!!
This is going to be COOL!!!!!!!!!
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SIGNAL HILL REUNION
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On 7/9/2004
J. Hughes
wrote in from
(4.177.nnn.nnn)
HEY ED, BIG THANKS FOR YOUR HELP, ALWAYS THERE WHEN NEEDED. CELL WENT DEAD, CALL BACK FOR PICKUP OF DISPLAY... JH
BIGGEST COLLECTION OF DOWNHILL HISTORY, JULY 24, 2004 LA COSTA RULES.
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SIGNAL HILL REUNION
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On 7/9/2004
JOHN HUGHES
wrote in from
(4.177.nnn.nnn)
Too All Downhill RACERS of Signal Hill, The first ever REUNION. FIRST I MUST THANK ALL WHO ARE HELPING WITH THIS, Russ Howell, Guy Grundy, Sam Puccio and Big Ed Economy. THIS WILL BE THE BIGGEST DISPLAY OF DOWNHILL HISTORY EVER SEEN IN ONE PLACE SINCE THE 1970'S RACES. IF YOU WERE THERE, YOU NEED TO BE HERE.
JULY 24 DISPLAY 7 am TO 4:30 PM REUNION THAT NIGHT, MAPS AND VIP BADGES HANDED OUT AT LA COSTA, WITHOUT ONE YOU WON'T GET IN. SEATS FOR 90 PEOPLE ONLY....
CONTACT; JOHN HUGHES ufogold@yahoo.com maps to La Costa posted on
www.skatewhat.com under events, see ya there........
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Signal Hill Bottom Half
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On 7/9/2004 EE
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
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Signal hill
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On 7/9/2004 EE
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
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Tommy Ryan Turner Summer Ski Lay Down
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On 7/9/2004 Ed E
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
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Stand Up Boards
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On 7/8/2004 Ed E
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
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Signal Hill
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On 7/8/2004 Ed E
wrote in from
(4.62.nnn.nnn)
To all you Signal Hill Skatecar & Downhill freaks. On July 24th in La Costa there having a world class slalom race. One of the side line attractions will be John Hughes, Russ Howell and Sam Puccio will be displaying and having a Signal Hill reunion.
There will be several downhill cars & standup boards as well as photos and items from the races... We need anybody who raced Signal Hill or knows anybody who has an original race board please contact John Hughes or post a note here. A small sample of what will be there. Sams 1st place 1976 luge type board 54 mph, John's 2nd place kneeboard 53mph. Out of my personal collection I'm bringing Harvey Hawks & Rick Howell Ick Stick race car, Tommy Ryan Turner Summer Ski Lay down and Knee car, 3 different Dave Dillberg downhill boards as well as the blue Banjo Dave Dillberg record board, Cliff Coleman's stand up board, Don Baumea PowerFlex lay down board, The Challenger Car, just to name a few John can fill in the details. This you don't want to miss...
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Skatecar pics
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On 7/8/2004
Adam
wrote in from
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
Don Baumea,
Can we have your permission to post some of your skatecar images in our permanent Pics gallery?
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SKATECAR
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On 7/8/2004 DON BAUMEA
wrote in from
(65.216.nnn.nnn)
ERIC IS IT? I REMEMBER IT QUITE VIVIDLY, AND I HAD INNUMERABLE EXPERIENCES GETTING PULLED OVER TO EXPLAIN WHAT IS WAS I HAD IN TOW. IAM IN ALISO VIEJO CA, BUT I AM MOVING TO UPSTATE NY IN A FEW DAYS. I WILL STIIL BE AT VOYAGERWSR@AOL.COM IF YOU NEED TO CHAT. DUANE, I HAD A THOUGHTSOME TIME AGO. IF I EVER BUILT ANOTHER SKATECAR I WOULD MAKE THE MOLD WITH THE IDEA OF OFFERING IT TO PEOPLE FOR USE IN ANY NUMBER OF PROJECTS WHERE ENVELOPING A RIDER WOULD BE REQUIRED, PERHAPS THE BODY WOULD BE A PLUG FOR SPECIFIC MODIFICATION, SAY A WIND SAILER, GRAVITY PLANE OR A WET SUB AO ONE OF THOSE COLLECE SEINOR PROJECTS THAT SEEM TO CONSTANTLY BE IN THE WORKS. THE BODY IS ALWAYS THE HARD PART FOR A LOT OF PEOPLE. CHEERS, DON
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Cars trains and planes
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On 7/7/2004
Arab
wrote in from
(65.28.nnn.nnn)
Hey Don-Glad to see you posting here, do you remember when I chased you down about 8 yrs ago in the middle of the night when you and your bro Mike were driving down the street with your old skatecar hanging out the back of your car at about 1 in the morning. Anyways, hope all is well, I heard you and your brother have moved away, where are you now?
Arab
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SKATECAR
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On 7/7/2004 DON BAUMEA
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
WELL I AM SURE I DONT DESERVE THE GRACIOUS COMMENTS. FIRST, IT IS GREAT TO HEAR TERRY NAILS COMMENTS. I WAS AT SIGNAL HILL IN 77 AND SAW FROM THE INTERSECTION HIS RIDE IN THE STROKER CAR. HE IS CORRECT IN AFIRMING THE CHUTE NOT BEING REQUIRED UNTIL 1978, WHEN I WAS ALSO REQUIRED TO PUT A CHUTE ON MY OPEN LAYDOWN SKATEBOARD. THE DUST WAS A BIG FACTOR IN THE FAILURE OF MANY TO STOP IN THE NORMAL SHUT DOWN AREA. TERRY FLEW THRU THE INTERSECTION FAR STRAIGHTER THAN MOST EVERYONE AND AS HE DID NOT HAVE A CHUTE. HE KIND OF ATE UP THE COURSE IN A HURRY. THERE WAS A POINT WHEN THE CROUD FULLY REALIZED HE WAS NOT GOUNG TO STOP BEFORE REDONDO ST, WHICH HAD A LOT OF FAST TRAFFIC. HE FLEW INTO THE HAY , AS I RECALL AND THAT EXPLODED BUT IT DID NOT SLOW HIM MUCH, MABEY SLOWING HIM 10-15 MPH BUT BY THAT TIME HE WAS STILL MOVING AND IT LOOKED LIKE HE WOULD BLOW THRU THE INTERSECTION AND INTO A NASTY DITCH ON THE FAR SIDE, THIS BEING A TEE INTERSECTION AT THAT POINT. THEN THIS BIG CAR JUST FLEW INTO VIEW FROM THE LEFT AND SWEPT TERRY COMPLETLY OUT OF VIEW. EVERYONE AROUND WHERE I WAS STANDING JUST REACTED TO WHAT LOOKED LIKE A FATALITY. IT TOOK SOME TIME TO LEARN TERRY WAS OK. BUT BY THEN EVEN MORE CRASHES HAD OCCURED OR WERE GOING TO OCCUR. 1978 WAS EVEN WORSE, IMAGINE 10,000 PEOPLE GASPING AND BEING HORIFIED AT THE SAME MOMENT. AT ONE POINT THE RACE HAD TO BE DELAYED AS THERE WERE NO MORE AMBULANCES AVAILABLE. I KID YOU NOT. THAT WAS MY FIST EXPERIENCE IN COMPETITION.
NOW AS I SAID I LOVE SKATECARS, THERE IS SOME INTANGIBLE ATTRACTION TO THE WHOLE EXPERIENCE OF DESIGNING, BUILDING AND DRIVING ONE. IT HAS NOTHING TO DO WITH PRACTICALITY. I CANT EXPLAIN IT. IF YOU GUYS CAN TELL ME HOW TO POST A PIC I CAN FILL IN THE MISSING PIECES ON SOME OF THE CARS WE HAVE DISCUSSED. TERRY'S CAR WAS SO COOL IN PERSON, IT HAD A VISUAL BALANCE AND SERIOUS LOOK ABOUT IT. BUT IT MOST CERTAINLY HAD TO BE THE SINGLE MOST EASY CAR TO OPERATE. FOR SIGNAL HILL IT WAS PERFECT. ONE MORE THING, UNIQUE TO THE SKATECAR, WAS THE PUSH. THE RULES ALLOWED FOR A PUSH START. WHY THAT WAS ALLOWED I NEVER UNDERSTOOD. NOT EVERYONE HAD A CAR THAT COULD BE PUSHED OR IN SOME CASES A RIDER DID NOT WANT A PUSH. EVENTUALLY THE RULES ALLOWED FOR TWO PUSHER TO USE A TEE BAR, WHICH HAD TO DETACH, TO PUSH TO A LINE. NICK LEONARD DID NOT USE A PUSH ON HIS RUNS, THE FIRST RADARED AT 59 MPH BUT HE CUT THE TAPESWITCH WITH THE BOTTOM OF THE CAR. THE SECOND RUN, WHICH WAS HIS FIRST OFFICIAL TIMED PASS WAS A NIGHTMARE. FOR SOME UNKNOWN REASON THE TIMING SYSTEM AND RADAR WERE TURNED OFF ON THIS RUN. HE MADE A SWEETHAEART PASS BUT AS SOME MAY RECALL THE CHUTES DEPLOYED BUT DID NOT OPEN. AN OFFICIAL, WHO HAD ALREADY SEEN NUMEROUS SERIOUS CRASHES, DECIDED TO TACKLE NICK'S CAR TO STOP ANOTHER DEVASTATING CRASH. IMAGINE THAT FOR A MOMENT, WHAT WAS HE THINKING? ANYWAY, NICK FAKED LEFT, THE OFFICIAL WENT LEFT, NICK RAN TO THE RIGHT AND FULLY REALIZING HE HAD USED UP TOO MUCH DISTANCE WITH THIS DANCE OPTED TO SPIN THE CAR TO THE LEFT AND END UP RUBBING THE LEFT CURB, SCRUBBING SPEED AND CRASHING FEET FIRSTIF IT CAME TO THAT. HE DID ALL THAT BUT MISJUDGED THE SPACE NEEDED TO SPIN A 10 FOOT CAR ON A TWO LANE ROAD. HE PEALED HIS NOSE OFF FROM CHEAK TO CHEAK DUE TO THE IMPACT WITH THE CURB AND THE FRONT TRUCK ASSY BEING IN HIS FACE. HE DID MAKE THE THE SPIN AND STOPPED.
I SAW THIS FROM THE TOP OF THE HILL AS I WAS ABOUT TO START MY RUN, LOTS OF MIXED EMOTIONS.
AT NINE AM THE NEXT DAY HE WAS BACK IN THE CAR ASESSING THE DAMAGE AND GETTING IT READY FOR AKRON. THE CAR WAS FULL OF BLOOD. WELCOME TO RACING, I RECALL HIM SAYING.
IF ANYONE WANTS TO DO THE SKATECAR THING I SAY GO FOR IT BUT UNDERSTAND THAT THE CONSEQUENCES OF DOING IT WRONG CAN BE QUITE SEVERE. CERTAINLY NOT FOR MOST SPEED FREAKS. HATS OFF TO TERRY AND JACK AND A WHOLE BUNCH OF PEOPLE WHO WILL NEVER HAVE THEIR STORY TOLD. IVE SEEN A LOT IN RACING, NOTHING YET HAS COME CLOSE TO WHAT I EXPERIENCED IN THE FIRST TWO YEARS IN DOWNHILL SKATEBOARD RACING. NOTHING. AND BELIEVE ME , MY STORIES PALE BY COMPARISON TO WHAT OTHERS EXPERIENCED ON THOSE FEW AND MARVELOUS DAYS. I REMEMBER.
CHEERS, DON
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Skatecar
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On 7/7/2004
T.Nails
wrote in from
(4.235.nnn.nnn)
Don,
Excellent points. The fogging issue was something that came up for us the first time we ran the Stroker car. we used antifogging spray which pretty much took care of it. The thing that we didn't foresee until later was the static problem and that didn't show itself until signal hill. Up until that point we had been running on a much steeper hill that was much cleaner as well. Signal hill had dirt all over it. When i hit the brake it threw dirt it to the cock pit and all over the wind shield and the static electrical charge of the lexan wind screen magnatized the dirt to it. That plus the smoke from the brake it self and the natural distortion of looking through lexan at that angle, removed what little vision I had. The dirt on the other had made it impossible to stop. Of coarse chutes didn't really enter the equation until the year after. I think you can thank us knuckleheads who raced in '77 for the fact that you had chutes in the following races. I also tested Hesters car one time before he ever got in to it. He didn't want to be the first one to test it and I don't blame him one bit. Head first is definately not the way to go, if only for saftey reasons. Going in to a curb or a wall head first is not a good idea no matter how faster you think it might be. As Don said, you really can't see much of anything in that position. After that first run in Henrys car I decided that it was just that- Henrys car- and that henry could do the testing from then on. I personally think that unless a skate car is propperly researched and tested and built or at least over seen by someone who has some real experience with steamline racing (like Bonniville and El Mirage) it's best left alone. It's too dangerous and too expensive. I also think that Downhill skateboarding is much cooler when it done under your own power (I don't go for tow in surfing much either, maybe I'm just old fashion).. One thing about skatecars though... They sure do look cool!
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Speed issues
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On 7/7/2004
Duane
wrote in from
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
Don, its funny how many issues you bring up which the beginning builder would not even think about. Fogging, vibration, and the low ride height conspire to make fools out of drivers. I've had drivers take wrong turns, and this on a course with only right hand turns ! Helmets slipping down over eyes...a squirrel being struck... cars barging barriers manned by cops and driving onto the course (a dump truck, once). Special Goodyear rubber, lightning fast but fragile and tearing and flying off the rims at speed. 10" pnuematic Panaracer tires at over 250 psi. There is no question that entropy rules when doing this kind of stuff. And, you are right about the frontal area, the driver in there is around 4'11" and 90 pounds...but adult (female). However I could cram my own ass in there if 100mm wheels are under, rather than next to the shoulders as the 200mm wheels are. The length is near 8 feet so that is no problem. If it goes down I look forward to seeing you on the hill !
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SKATECAR
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On 7/7/2004 DON BAUMEA
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
HI DUANE,
I DON'T BELIEVE MY COMMENTS DESERVED A RESPECTFUL REPLY. WHERE TO START? FIRST IAM FAIRLY CERTAIN THAT WHATEVER IT IS YOU BUILT IS OF A QUALITY AND LEVEL OF WORKMANSHIP NOT SEEN IN BUT A FEW SKATECARS. IT IS HARD TO COMPARE YOUR VEHICLE TO A USSA SKATECAR. TYPICALLY THEY WERE ALMOST THE FULL TEN FEET LONG. IN FACT I WOULD HAVE TO SAY THAT SKATECARS, AND IAM SPEAKING OF THE CREAM OF THE CROP, WERE PRIMARILY EXERCISES IN PACKAGING AND NOT MUCH MORE. THOUGH THEY HAD THE LOOK OF AERODYNAMICS ALL OVER THEM THE ONLY ONES I CAN CERTIFY AS BEING DESIGNED BY A TRAINED AERODYNAMICIST WAS THE POWERFLEX CARS AND NICK SPECIFICALLY FOCUSED ON FRONTAL AREA AS THE PRIMARY AREA OF AERO DRAG REDUCTION.
ONE OF MY TEXT STATES," A BLUFF BODY IS ANY BODY OF WHICH 50 % OR MORE OF THE AERODYNAMIC DRAG IS DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO FRONTAL AREA EFFECTS. WHEREAS A STREAMNLIED BODY IS ANY BODY WHICH 50% OR MORE OF THE AERODYNAMIC DRAG IS DIRECTLY ATTRIBUTABLE TO SKIN FRICTION EFFECTS". AT THE REYNOLDS NUMBER SKATECARS OPERATED WITHIN LAMINAR FLOW WOULD BE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLE AND FURTHER MORE TUFT TESTING ON VARIOUS VEHICLES I HAVE DRIVEN HAVE CONFIRMED JUST THAT. NOW HAVING SAID THAT, YOU CERTAINLY CAN DESIGN A FAR SUPERIOR AND EFFICIENT SKATECAR THAT HAS BEEN BUILT TO DATE. I DONT BELIEVE A KID SHOULD DRIVE SKATECARS, WITH OR WITH OUT WEIGHT FOR SO MANY REASONS. YOUR VEHICLE APPEARS TO BE QUITE A BIT SMALLER THAN "SILVER STREAK" AND THAT IS THE SMALLEST FRONTAL AREA SKATECAR AS ROGER WILLIAMS IS, HOW SHALL I SAY IT, THE MOST FRONTAL AREA OPTIMIZED DRIVER YOU COULD EVER HOPE TO FIND. SILVER STREAK IS THE ONLY SKATECAR IN THE TOP 5 I HAVE NOT DRIVEN AND AT 145 LBS I WAS WAY TOO BIG.
YOU CERTAINLY CAN MODIFY YOUR VEHICLE TO FUNCTION AS A LEAN STEERED VEHICLE, LIKE A SKATECAR BUT I DONT THINK IT WOULD FIT THE RULES. THE ONLY SKATECARS BUILT AND RACED WERE DONE SO UNDER UNITED STATES SKATEBOARD ASSOCIATION (USSA) SANCTION AND THERE RULES. CHUTES WERE MANDATORY AND THAT IS WHY MOST WERE CLOSE TO 10 FEET IN LENGTH. NOW IF YOU WERE JUST INTERISTED IN RUNNING DOWNHILL AS FAST AS YOU CAN THAN LEAN STEERING IS NOT THE WAY TO GO. A VEHICLE COULD BE BUILT 16 INCHES WIDE, 13 INCHES TALL AND ACHEIVE 85 MPH WITHOUT DIFFICULTY. THE PROBLEM THEN BECOMES ONE OF DESIRE. IVE BEEN PRETTY FAST HEADFIRST AND IT IS THRILLING UP TO A POINT. A LITTLE OVER 70 IS WHERE I BEGIN TO ALTER MY BREATHING PATTERN. THE PROBLEM IS NOT THE SPEED OR VISUAL QUES, BUT THE REALITY THAT THIS IS OCCURING ON A STREET OR ROAD AND CRASHING AT THOSE SPEEDS IN A HEADFIRST CONFIGURATION IS GOING TO EXPOSE A RIDER TO NUMEROUS FAILURE MODES THAT ANATOMICALLY ARE NEARLY IMPOSSIBLY TO ADDRESS SUFFICIENTLY IN THE VERY SMALL PACKAGING OF A SKATECAR. THAT IS WHY I CHOSE FEET FIRST AND THAT AFTER VERY LENGHTY RESEARCH INTO HUMAN CRASH DYNAMICS. WELL THERE WAS ONE MORE FACTOR. AT THE TIME I WAS BUILDING THE CHALLENGER, NO ONE WAS DOING DOWNHILL IN STREAMLINERS OR SKATECARS. I WAS IT FOR YEARS. SO I HAD NO COMPETITION TO CAUSE EXTENSIVE AERO WORK BEING PERFORMED. ANOTHER FUNNY THING THAT INFLUENCED MY CHOICES AN THAT WAS EVER FAST HILL I CAME UPON ALMOST ALWAYS HAD A TURN IN EITHER THE RUN UP TO SPEED, THE SPEED SECTION OR THE SHUT DOWN AREA. I FOUND MANY SLOWER STRAIGHT HILLS, IN THE 60 TO 70 MPH RANGE BUT MY GOAL WAS TO CLOCK 80 PLUS. SO AS YOU KNOW, A HEADFIRST CONFIGURATION PUTS THE C.G. WELL FORWARD AND AS A BREED THE HEAD FIRST SKATECAR IS TAIL HAPPY IN A TURN, AT THE LIMIT OF ADHESION. IN THE CHALLENGER SEVERAL THINGS WERE POSSIBLE DUE TO A FEET FIRST CONFIGURATION. ONE WAS BECAUSE OF THE USE OF STEEING HANDLES I WAS ABLE TO CROSS UP THE WHEELS, TURNING INTO THE DIRECTION OF DRIFT. I COULD ALSO LIFT MY FEET WHICH TRANSFERED ABOUT 5 POUNDS FORE AND AFT AND WHEN COUPLED WITH DIFFERENT WHEEL COMPOUND FORMULATION AND WHEEL WIDTHS I COULD MAKE 90 DEGREE TURNS AND FAST SWEEPERS IN A BALANCED DRIFT IF REQUIRED. CHUTES SOMETIMES WEATHERVANE IF YOUR TESTING IS INDISCRIMINATE OF WEATHER CONDITION AND SO IT WOULD HAPPEN THAT I WAS ABLE TO RUN IN LESS THAN PERFECT CONDITIONS, BECAUSE I COULD OPPOSITE LOCK THE STEERING AND RECOVER, BUT I WOULD NOT HAVE BEEN ABLE TO TAKE THAT CHANCE IN A HEADFIRST CAR.
REMEMBER SKATECARS RAN AT 60 MPH OR LESS AND ONLY ON STRAIGHT COURSES. I RAN 3 MILE LONG ROADS WITH SEVERAL TURNS.
SOME OTHER PROBLEM I HAVE ENCOUNTERED IN VARIOUS SKATECARS ARE WINDOW PARALAX, WHICH CAN DISTORT YOUR ABILITY TO PROPERLY JUDGE CORNERS. IN HEAD FIRST YOUR EYE HEIGHT IS OFTEN LOWER THAN THE TOP OF THE CURB MAKING APEXING VERY DIFFICULT TO CALCULATE AND NAVIGATE. TREMENDOUS VIBRATION, WHICH TO BE HONEST, IN THE CHALLENGER, OFTEN CAUSED MAJOR PORTIONS OF A RUN TO BE DRIVEN BLIND INAS MUCH AS I COULD NOT SEE THE ROAD SURFACE BUT I COULD INFER THE SIDES OF THE ROAD AND THE CENTERLINE BY COLOR. FOGGING OCCURED OFTEN AND IT TOOK SOME DISTANCE TO CLEAR, BUT BY THEN THE VIBRATION ASPECT HAD SET IN.
I DONT KNOW IF ANY OF THIS IS MEANINGFUL. CHEERS,DON
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bluff ?
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On 7/6/2004 Duane
wrote in from
(68.15.nnn.nnn)
http://www.ofoto.com/PhotoView.jsp?&collid=29501738503&photoid=69501738503
Don, what's your opinion of this one ? I personally carved the foam and did the mold lay-ups in 1990. The molds were subsequently used to pop out four copies over the years. I don't think this would qualify as a bluff body. The bottom has curvature as well although you really can't see it in the photo. All the sections were molded in the unified molds so seams are very tight and near-perfect. The nose pops off for front loading. There is a drag brake just fore of the rear wheel that works rather well, actuated with air pressure. It is calibrated to drag with force not sufficient to lift the rear wheel, but almost, and can be lifted and pulsed repeatedly. Controlled stops have been done many times although it is an emergency brake and not intended for use during the race (lest you want to lose said race), and is hairy to use if turning. The basic profile was adapted from the Sunraycer car built by General Motors for the original Aussie solar car race. As I didn't have a wind tunnel, I borrowed the General's logic. I would need to swap the 200mm wheels for whatever the maximum would be for skatecar racing today, and the steering is rack & pinion on the front, but as the body is monocoque, I can glue in a new business section fairly quickly and easily. The handle is there for push-offs, but as you pointed out, rolling and pinwheeling really hurt, so it also serves as anti-roll protection. The bar also serves as a nice place to mount a small "sail" to slow the thing down for training runs.I totally agree about the weight and frontal area. Any serious skatecar race would have to have some limits, a total weight maximum, and adult drivers, or you could have a kid with 200lb. of ballast absolutely dominate
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Skatecar Aero
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On 7/5/2004 Pre-School Rider
wrote in from
(24.53.nnn.nnn)
Thanks Don for the explanation! The world of aerodynamics is an interesting place,especially when it comes to ground vehichles. I have only a rudimentary (uneducated) grasp of what goes on. However, I do make paper airplanes that'll fly indoors for about 15 seconds,and go for long while when outside(upwards of 65 ft UP). I also got as far as making a mini-windtunnel for some of my projects. That's how I know my streetluge underpan/seat works (not saying more..). I have no idea if I'd ever have the money + time to build up a skatecar,although using the steel-tube frame from one of my luges has crossed my mind. BTW,Duane's downhill streamliners are very interesting,and somewhat secretive,vehichles. His practical experience leads me to believe he's got a handle on some of this. If he does go for a 'skatecar',it'll be something to reckon with.
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SKATECAR
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On 7/5/2004 DON BAUMEA
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
PSR- I WOULD PREFER TO RESPOND IN E-MAIL THAN HERE. I THINK I UNDERSTAND YOUR QUESTION, SO I'LL GIVE IT A WHIRL. REALLY ONLY A FEW PEOPLE HAVE SUCCESSFULLY DRIVEN SKATECARS IN COMPETITION. TO SAY THEY WERE DANGEROUS IS AN UNDERSTATMENT. THE TERM SKATECAR IS QUITE VAGUE AND DOES NOT DESCRIBE ANY ONE SPECIFIC DESIGN. IN 1978 THE RULES WERE INTERPRETED SO WIDELY THAT MANY PEOPLE BELIEVED THE 1979 RACE, IF IT HAD HAPPENED IT WOULD HAVE BEEN WITHOUT SKATECARS, IT WAS A VERY LIMITED LIFE THEY ENJOYED.
TO FULLY UNDERSTAND AND DISCUSS THE SKATECAR IS OUTSIDE THE SCOPE OF THIS FORUM. PERHAPS ONLY A FEW WERE THE PRODUCT OF SERIOUS THOUGHT AND ENGINEERING AND THE DRIVERS RANGED FROM ZERO RUNS AND NO IDEA OF WHAT WAS ABOUT TO HAPPEN TO A VERY EXPERIENCED FORMULA CAR DRIVER AS WELL AS SOME VERY QUALIFIED DOWNHILL SKATEBOARDERS. SO TO PREFACE MY COMMENT LET ME QUALIFY MYSELF.
I HAVE EXPERIENCE IN BOTH HEAD FIRST AND FEET FIRST CONFIGURATION SKATECARS, STREET LUGE AND STAND UP DOWNHILL SKATEBOARDS. I HAVE SOME EXPERIENCE WITH OTHER FORMS OF MOTORSPORTS AND FOR A TIME HAD MY OWN WIND TUNNEL. THE ORIGINAL POWERFLEX "GREEN MACHINE" SKATECAR WAS DESIGNED AND BUILT IN TWO WEEKS TO BE ABLE TO RACE AT AKRON, OHIO, WHERE IT WON FIRST PLACE. IT WAS A CONTROVERSIAL CAR IN THAT WHILE IT DID LEAN WHEN IT WAS STEERED IT DID NOT EXACTLLY ABIDE WITH THE RULES, WHICH WERE SUFICIENTLY VAGUE TO ALLOW STEERING HANDLES. THE RULES WERE CHANGE FOR 1978 TO ELIMINATE THIS OVERSIGHT. WHEN I ACQUIRED IT, IT WAS IN DISREPAIR AND AS IT WAS NEVER INTENDED TO LAST MORE THAN A MONTH, IT WAS A VERY SCRAPPY AFFAIR. TEST RUNS WERE HALTED WHEN THE HONEYCOMB CHASSIS WAS ABOUT FAIL. IN 1981 I MADE A NEW CHASSIS, STEERING, CHUTE ASSY AND A COMPLETELY NEW BODY BASED ON THE PREVIOUS DESIGN WITH MODIFICATIONS. NAMED THE CHALLENGER, IT WAS USED TO PURSUE THE UNLIMITED SPEED RECORD FOR GRAVITY VEHICLES, NOT A SKATECAR RECORD. SILVER STREAK STILL HOLDS THAT RECORD OFFICIALLY.
THE ONE MAIN REASON I CHOSE THE FEET FIRST LAYOUT WAS FOR CORNERING AND THE SECOND REASON WAS IT HAD BETTER CRASH CHARACTERISTICS. I THINK THE CONFUSION DUANE HAS AND I SUSPECT OTHERS MAY HAVE IS THAT THERE WAS NEVER A SINGLE EXAMPLE OF A STREAMLINER SKATECAR BUILT. THEY MAY LOOK STREAMLINED BUT THEY WERE WITHOUT EXCEPTION ALL BLUFF BODIES. IT IS FUN TO TALK OF SUPERIOR AERODYNAMICS AND THEORIES BUT THE SKATECARS OF THE SEVENTIES WERE RULED BY FRONTAL AREA, ROLLING RESISTANCE AND WEIGHT. DAVE DILLBERG, HEAVY GUY, HEAVY CAR, MEDIUM FRONTAL AREA. HENRY HESTER,(WHITE LIGHTNING) HEAVY GUY, MEDIUM WEIGHT CAR, SMALL FRONTAL AREA. ROGER WILLIAMS,( SILVER STREAK) VERY LITE GUY, MEDIUM WEIGHT CAR, VERY SMALL FRONTAL AREA. NICK LEONARD, ( FLIPPER) MEDIUM WEIGHT GUY ,MEDIUM WEIGHT CAR, VERY SMALL FRONTAL AREA.
THERE IS NO POSSIBILITY OF LAMINAR AIRFLOW ON ANY OF THESE CARS AND ANY DISCUSSION OF IT IS JUST THAT. I HAVE BEEN AROUND A BIT OF AERODYNAMIC STUFF AND I JUST DO NOT UNDERSTAND DUANE'S THEORIES. ON A SOMEWHAT RELATED NOTE, I WAS WORKING WITH A GUY ON A JET CAR AT THE TIME I HAD THE CHALLENGER, WHICH I KEPT IN FAB SHOP. AT SOME POINT I WAS CONTACTED IN 1978 TO MAKE AN ATTEMPT AT THE RECORD, JACK SMITH WAS THERE I RECALL. ANY WAY THE ONE PROBLEM I HAD WITH EVERY SCATECAR WAS THE BRAKE SYSTEM, WHICH OFTEN CONSISTED OF A DRAG BRAKE. WHEN DEPLOYED, THE TRANFER OF WEIGHT OFF THE REAR WHEELS NEEDED TO BE CAREFULLY BALLANCED OTHERWISE THE VEHICLE WOULD TRY TO SWAP ENDS. IT GENERALLY CAME DOWN TO FINESSING IT BUT IN MY CASE THE CHALLENGER WAS DESIGNED TO DRIFT THRU THE TURNS EITHER IN THE SPEED SECTION OR IN THE SHUT DOWN AREA. MOST SKATECARS , WHEN IN TROUBLE ARE VEERING OFF COURSE, AND A REAR DRAG BRAKE MAKES RECOVERY VERY TRECHEROUS. DILBERG'S CAR HAD A DRUM BRAKE, BUT THE SAME ISSUES WERE STILL PRESENT. ANYWAY, WHAT I DID WAS REMOVE THE REAR DRAG BRAKE AND FABRICATED A NEW ONE UP FRONT, WHERE THE WEIGHT TRANSFER WOULD NOT UNLOAD THE REAR WHEELS, IT WORKED GREAT. HOW GREAT? GOOD ENOUGHT TO BE INCORPORATED INTO THE JET CAR, WHICH FOR THE SAKE OF TRIVIA IS NAMED,"THE SPIRIT OF AMERICA".
ONE THING NO ONE HAS MENTIONED IS A VERY SPECIFIC PROBLEM UNIQUE TO GRAVITY RACING. IN A SKATE CAR, THAT IS ROLLING AND FLIPPING THE BRAKE SYSTEN IS USLESS. AND INCEDENTIALLY THE THROTTLE IS STILL ON, IF YOU UNDERSTAND MY MEANING. CHUTES ARE A GOOD IDEA BUT THEY NEED TO BE SPECIFICALLY DESIGNED FOR SOME SKATECARS WHILE OTHERS CAN USE OFF THE SHELF IN SOME INSTANCES. NOT LIKE STREET LUGE AT ALL WHEN YOU CRASH. I WOULD RECOMEND NOT ATTEMPTING TO MAKE A CAR WITH ADDED GROUND CLEARANCE. IN 1998 I BEGAN RECONFIGURING THE CHALLENGER TO PURSUE THE UNLIMITED RECORD AGAIN, ON SNOW THIS TIME AND IT WAS CALCULATED THAT WE WOULD BE IN THE 211 MPH RANGE.
MY LAST COMMENT IS PROBABLLY GOING TO SCREW UP THE AERO GEEKS BUT SO BE IT. IF YOU EVER BUILD ONE MAKE IT LOOK GOOD AND STYLISH BECAUSE YOU WONT DRIVE IT VERY OFTEN. THEY ARE NOT THE MOST FUN TO ACTUALLY DRIVE, HEADFIRST BEING THE MOST UNCOMFORTABLE.
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Powerflex
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On 7/4/2004 PSR
wrote in from
(24.53.nnn.nnn)
Don,If duane's not entirely correct,then am I closer to the truth? Or,is it an X-Files enigma kinda thing? ;-)
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NEW SKATECAR
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On 7/4/2004
DON BAUMEA
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
I WAS GOING OVER MY FILES AND CAME ACROSS THE HEAD FIRST DESIGN I PLANNED BUILDING LAST YEAR AND IT CAME TO ME, IF THERE IS ANY INTERIST WOULD ANYONE WANT TO BUY A NEW SKATECAR, BASED ON THE 1978 USSA RULES? I COULD OFFER SOME AS A KIT COMPLETE WITH TRUCKS,WHEELS AND CHUTES. THE PRICE RANGE LAST YEAR WAS $1500-$2500, DEPENDING ON THE DESIGN CHOSEN. ORIGINALLY I HAD PLANNED TO INCLUDE A VIDEO, GIVING SAFETY TIPS AND SOME HISTORY ON THE SPORT. I DON'T HAVE MY SCANNER UP AND RUNNING OR I WOULD HAVE POSTED A PIC. SINCE NO INTERIST WAS EXPRESSED AT THAT TIME I CONCLUDED THAT I WAS PERHAPS THE ONLY PERSON WHO HAD ANY INTERIST IN SKATECARS.
DUANE, GO EASY ON THE POWERFLEX THEORIES, YOUR NOT ENTIRELY CORRECT.
CHEERS, DON BAUMEA
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Skatecars
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On 7/3/2004
Don Baumea
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
Interisting discussion on Skatecars. Why the sudden interist? I would advise anyone who wanted to experiment with a true lean steered skatecar as per the USSA 1978 rules should do so with caution. I personally love skatecars. But they are not for the average downhiller. Jack Smith is an exceptional skatecar rider and I think his experiences might give someone the impression anyone can drive one at speed. Not all Skatecars were equal, some were marginal and some were killers,in anyones hands. The Vetter Streamliner was one of the best in terms of handling.I cant speak about any other aspect of his car but it certainly was a very stabil design and it looked awesome at speed. My preference is for head first designs but feet first has distinct advantages. I highly recomend chutes, but let me qualify this by saying a special chute should be used. I would challenge anyone to reconsider designing a car without a proper chute system.
In my opinion Henry Hester's White lightning was good example of a Signal Hill Skatecar and though not a technical marvel it was easy and practical to build and operate, and it is very fast. It was a confidence builder. I have had a lot of special experiences with various Skatecars and met a lot of people because of them. I would build another if the opportunity came up and in fact last year I was planning to build a head first car. On a side note Powerflex Skateboard co. were involved with 4 skatecars designed by Nick Leonard, the "Sea Ski Special" (Black/1977)Signal Hill, the Powerflex "Green Machine" (Green/Blue 1977) Akron Ohio, the "Pride of Wamucca" mock-up and test vehicle and the final car, "Flipper" (Green @Signal Hill/1978, Rebuilt - Red @Akron Ohio 1978).
I love Skatecars, but in the years since Signal Hill, very few people have ever expressed an interist in building or driving one , at least to me. I was standing 5 feet away from Mark Bowman when he crashed the FreeFormer car at Akron and I believed even that day I had just witnessed the end of Skatecar racing. Well mabey people are ready to try again. Cheers,Don Baumea
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GF1
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On 7/1/2004 shnitzel
wrote in from
(24.244.nnn.nnn)
what ever happened to gravity formula one racing???? skatecars + corners = a good time ;)
as soon as you include corners weight doesnt need to be regulated anymore. straight road racing is boring....
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