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| Q&A: Dr David Hartman on Head Injuries (824 Posts)
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Protec
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On 8/15/2002
Dan Hughes
wrote in from
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And if I was a cyclist interested in a bicycle helmet I would surely look for the CPSC sticker. But, since I'm interested in skating helmets, I'm going to look for the ASTM F-1492 sticker inside.
A bicycle helmet would be good for me on the slalom course, as I rarely fall, and hit my head. A bicycle helmet would be a poor economic choice on the vert ramp, or in the pool, at least for me.
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straight from the bhsi's mouth
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On 8/15/2002 R.
wrote in from
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Sorry, the bhsi website is www.bhsi.org, not .com; reviews are here: http://www.bhsi.org/helmet02.htm
anyhoo, here is the poop on Pro-Tec:
"Beware of skateboard helmets with no CPSC sticker inside. Some of them look exactly like a bike/skateboard multipurpose helmet from the outside, but the foam inside is not designed for the impacts a bicycle rider should expect. Be sure to look for a CPSC sticker before using a skateboard-style helmet for bicycling!"
" Pro-Tec has three bicycle models for 2002. Two are for bicycling despite the skateboard style. But Pro-Tec's Web site makes it clear that they have other models identical in outward appearance but with a different liner that is designed for multi-impact non-bicycle use and certified only to a European standard because of the liners. Just be sure to look for the CPSC sticker if you are buying for bicycle use.
* Classic Freestyle: The classic look of a skateboarders helmet, a round and smooth retro design that has been around since Pro-Tec originated it in the 1970's. Round and smooth, with small round vents and good coverage, it is still a favorite with the skate crowd. But this is the bicycle version, complete with a crushable EPS liner to meet the CPSC bicycle helmet standard. So check the sticker inside to make sure you are getting the bicycle version, the Classic Freestyle, rather than the Classic Skate model. Comes in visible white and yellow as well as the standard dark colors. Retails for $40.
* Ace Freestyle : An updated skateboard style helmet with larger oval vents and minor reshaping of the shell lines. It still has a round and smooth shape. Again, for bicycle riding you must get the Ace Freestyle, not the outwardly similar Ace Skate, which is sold for skating rather than bicycling and is not certified to the CPSC standard."
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Dr. Dave's Opinion
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On 8/15/2002
Dr. Dave
wrote in from
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My opinion is not EPP v. EPS - It's Snell and CPSC v. No-sticker Helmets. Either rating means that your brain will live through a fall. A good multiple use helmet that has the sticker should be just fine. I think it's time to lobby the mfgrs to put their stickers where your head is.
drD
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helmet
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On 8/15/2002
loneskater
wrote in from
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i skate and i wear a helmet. that said i also ride a bike long distances and wear a helmet. you ever see the cost of bike helmets? after the "laws" were changed? i assure you they didn't go down in price. price never goes down, profits go up. buy stock in Giro or any other helmet manu. do it before there is litigation. at the first sign of litigation sell stocks. that is using your head!
got a wotrthless head don't spend the $ on a helmet. i think it should be up to the individual. i didn't alwways wear one, but now i do. it does make the younger skaters more comfortable to see older guys wearing helmets. this has been beat to death ad nauseum.
i am really looking forward to finding out if there are wrist guards that go to the elbo? i continue to road rash the skin between elbo pad and Triple 8 wrist guard (one of the best i have ever seen with half finger al leather palms) i wish and am looking for some fore arm protection. any body got any solutions besides leathers? George.
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Skateboard Commercial on TV
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On 8/15/2002
W. Tucker
wrote in from
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Interesting VANS commercial this afternoon on FSN's OFF THE WALL show. Several pro skateboarders were interviewed while making their moves off various walls, rails, stairs, steps and curbs. The 30-second spot ended with one of the guys slamming from the top of a five-step landing and hitting hard right on his back and head.
No pads, no helmets, no gloves, no nothing.
Of course, Vans was conscientious enough to have a little disclaimer across the bottom of the ad in very tiny white type: "Professional Skateboarders - no not attempt without proper protection."
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Patio's head injury story
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On 8/15/2002
Dan Hughes
wrote in from
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Patio, I just read your story on line and wow, what a story! And great writing by Dr. Dave.
I'm going to print it out and get my son to read it. He's 16, and none of skating buddies wear helmets, so he's always telling me that he doesn't need to wear one.
I told him what happened to Michael Dong (slalom practice slam, knocked out for 20 seconds, hospital etc.), and so he's starting to wear one when I'm around.
But, his buddies are just too cool to wear them. But, hey, as you said, "a helmet is a lot more comfortable than a wheel chair." (I'm thinking that would be a great T-Shirt)
Thanks for sharing.
dan
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EPP yeah you know me
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On 8/14/2002 R.
wrote in from
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EPP vs. EPS--
Dr. Dave do you have any opinion on this?
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helmets
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On 8/14/2002 R.
wrote in from
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Christian--
if I understand you correctly, there is nothing in what you say that would operate any differently on helmet manufacturers unless the government _only_ allows safety certified helmets to be sold. The market is a very poor regulator of quality and safety; I don't see any necessary improvement to R+D in safety standards; Money that will give a mass competitive edge to companies will almost always be spent in marketing if they can skimp on safety. Given what you describe as O'Connell's plan, it seems quite naive.
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helmets (again)
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On 8/14/2002
Christian Duncan
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Dear snoball,
I really do not know the exact specifications of the new law regarding helmet requirements. But, if anything like the bike helmet law (which is what Senator O'Conell, of San Luis Obispo, claims it is like) the manufacturers will be basically 'forced' to manufacture appropriate helmets by the market, if not the government. This will occur, in that there will be a blatant monopoly of the market given to legal helmets, due to the fact that they will be the ones that are most frequently purchased. This will force helmet manufacturers to conform in order to sell. I foresee, similar to bike helmets, that there will be a massive amount of Research & Development in order to stay ahead of the competition, in order to stay on top of the market, and there will therefore be much progress in regards to helmet technology.
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info...
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On 8/14/2002
patio
wrote in from
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hey Christian,
for my head injury story, see my webpage
www.patiomendino.com
go to "adventures" and find the story.
The great Dr. Dave wrote the article for International Longboarder Magazine. They have it in their online issues...
P@io
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Protec Helmets
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On 8/14/2002
Dan Hughes
wrote in from
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I found this on: http://www.helmets.org/other.htm#skateboard
It says, "The bicycle/rollerblade helmets or those meeting the ASTM recreational skating standard are single-use helmets. Fall-down-go-boom-buy-new-helmet. The term "recreational" is intended to eliminate trick skating, freeform skating, half-pipe skating, hot dogging, roller hockey and other radical skating styles where falls are frequent and a multi-impact helmet is required. For those sports and for skateboard use we would recommend looking for a helmet that meets the ASTM F-1492 standard and is made with Expanded PolyPropylene, known as EPP, rather than the standard Expanded PolyStyrene (EPS) which virtually all bike helmets are made of, or squishy foam."
That's not all, but that will get me where I think I wanted to go. I'm not for or against any type of company or helmet. I just want to skate safe (along with my son), and have the best helmet money can buy, but not throw money down the tube, either.
My feeling is that the EPP type of foam in the Protec helmets is what is needed in a skateboarder helmet. Although, In all my helmets, I wish it was thicker. In other words more protection. I've noticed that Tony is wearing a TSG(?) Helmet, and it appears to have thicker padding. Though, I'm not sure, it could be he has a smaller head than me. Andy Mac, Bob and Lincoln use the same Protec that I use.
I agree with the people at helmets.org, that say the Expanded PolyStyrene (EPS) type helmets aren't for the type of skateboarding I do. I hit my head at least once a day when skating. Not real hard, but hard enough to make me think that a better helmet would be nice. Now, I don't think for a minute that EPS type helmets are the answer. And the people at helmets.org agree, pointing out that repeated impacts in the same area, decrease the helmets ability to protect that area.
Now, I could replace my helmet each day, but that doesn't make much sense to me either.
They continue:
"So we recommend that you choose a skateboard helmet that has an ASTM F-1492 sticker inside."
Something that I'm inclined to do (1492, wasn't that when Columbus discovered the new world?).
I also found:
Article in Consumers Reports July '02 as quoted on this web site: http://www.helmets.org/cu_2002.htm
"A sidebar on skate helmets notes that although bike helmets must meet the CPSC standard, skate-style helmets are not required by law to meet ASTM 1492 for skateboarding. It says the Pro-tec Ace Freestyle was the only skate model they tested that meets both standards, so we assume that means that the Specialized P3, Bell Trailrider and Giro Semi MX should be considered bike helmets only, despite their "skate" shape. All three rated only good in impact protection. "
dan
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helmets...
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On 8/14/2002 Patio
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
1) other people use my computer at work, same IP. no conspiracy, yo!
2) when the Tour de Frawnce tried to enforce helmets back in the early 90's, the rule book said, "protective head covering". that year, there were guys wearing dress hats, and claiming that they "protected your head" from sun...legal. but stoopid.
3) don't lose sight of promoting helmets. I'd rather see kids in these "plastic baseball caps" than no helmet at all.
4) strange that Pro Tec has been around so long, and so many people use their helmets if they are no good. again, I have impacted Pro Tecs and had no problems with them. My "rated" bicycle helmet(Giro) won't even sit on my head straight. Until they custom mold the styrofoam to each individual's head, there will be "fit" problems. I feel more comfortable in a helmet that fits my head.
p
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Helmet construction theory
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On 8/14/2002
kmg
wrote in from
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I read somewhere that there are 3 impacts whenever you are involved in a car collision:
1. Car hits obstacle
2. Head hits windshield
3. Brain hits inside of skull
Wouldn't the same ideas apply to helmets?
1. Helmet hits asphalt/concrete/Skatelite,etc
2. Head hits inside of helmet
3. Brain hits inside of skull
I believe that a helmet's liner serves the same purpose as an airbag in a car; to slowly decelerate the head in step #2 so as to reduce the G forces applied to the brain in step #3.
The helmet I wear has what is refered to as a "multiple impact rating". There are 2 layers of foam inside. The first layer, next to my head, is a soft foam. There is an addition layer of much denser foam between the soft layer and the helmet's shell. Doesn't this combination of 2 different densities of foam accomplish the task of slowly decelerating my head in an impact?
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tha helmet thang
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On 8/13/2002 snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Hi Christian,
I'm just a little curious about what you feel will flow
automatically from this law. I mean, how will the demand
in helmets you predict force manufacturers to offer
something that is worth buying? By that I mean something that
isn't too heavy, is specific to skateboarding, and uses high quality materials *inside* the pretty shells that surround your skull?
Please don't get me wrong. I'm no advocate of head injury
and don't think anyone else is unless they're bordering
on dementia. I've bumped my head before and was very fortunant as I didn't have a helmet on. The pain and stars
at the moment are always screaming,"Bet that wouldn't
have hurt at all if you had a helmet yidiot!!". All
I'm saying is that I'm not convinced a law forcing you to
wear a helmet necessarily *guarantees* the helmets you
will buy will protect you over a certain speed or, as someone
pointed out, a broken neck. IS there a recognized federal
criteria the skate helmet corps must meet? If not, maybe they'll just flood the market with even more crappy head baskets with 'cool graphics'.You know, with all the super space-age materials on this planet can't ANYONE develop a very good helmet?
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reponse
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On 8/13/2002
Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Snoball,
That "seanjohn" is not me! I am totally clueless to who that even is. I am using a computer in the library of my college and there are about 150 other computers in this section of the library alone, and they are all the same IP address, so it was not me!
and I am refering to the helmet law in CA that will be going through shortly. The only steps left are that of the Assembly Floor, and then to be signed by Governor G(r)ay Davis.
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Helmets
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On 8/13/2002
Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
The fact remains that the law will force helmet companies to comply with restrictions. The law will, therefore, greatly increase demand for helmets, which will in turn, greatly increase the sale of helmets, which will consequently drastically lower the prices of helmets, making them obtainable by any and all who ride.
This will occur with this law, just like it did with the bicycle helmet law. So, don't worry about it!
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little grasshopper goes boom
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On 8/13/2002
R.
wrote in from
(156.40.nnn.nnn)
p.s. "seanjohn," just because someone doesn't bother with "proper" grammar or spelling (see hughr's early posts), or pulls in less than "60,00" (60,000? looks like a typo, hmmm...) a year does not make them a moron or worthless. Starting salary for a professor is 40-50,000/ yr (if you're lucky), your high school teachers make less than that, and if you look at the world of CEO's, oh yes, there are some brilliant *gems* out there pulling down 6 digits and their companies at the expense of everybody else. Not to mention all those folks who don't have degrees or great jobs (in America? I am shocked, shocked I tell you..) but are as smart or smarter than academics and CEOs. I think maybe you've been riding those pro-tecs with the soft foam after all. Sorry "dude", but I thought your post was pretty unwarranted, and also vicious.
sorry about going on, but seanjohn didn't leave an email. I usually don't leave mine (I used to, but got a lot of junk mail from web trawlers), but I will this time so we can take this off air if need be. replace ? with the regular dot "." Or, webmaster, you can just delete the whole lame spiel.
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Pro-Tec once again
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On 8/13/2002 R.
wrote in from
(156.40.nnn.nnn)
snoball--
again, according to the bhsi, the "Pro-Tec" (in quotations) shell is rated as superior to your hyper-ventilated, tear-drop bike helmet (even those by Giro)-- mo' round is mo' betta for all the reasons indicated by Patio. But the Pro-Tec brand itself, as long as they have the cushy foam in it instead of the "styrofoam" is crap in protection in impact, for all the reasons Duane et. al. (including Dr. D.) have mentioned. Let me refresh your memory--when Dr. D. is talking about impact absorption and foam crushing (see the early posts on helmets and crashing), I'm pretty certain he's talking about the hard foam (uh, Dr. Dave?). I agree that the hard foam can be annoying (I also have a weird, and very large head), but after a break in period, the foam settles in a bit and it's fine. And as for the soup bowl thing, some manu's basically have helmets pretty much as idiotic as that, and basically I think that is the objection to pro-tec. It's a soup bowl (plastic) lined with felt and a chinstrap. Okay, the graphics are nicer than a soup bowl.
Christian, I assume the law you are talking about is California state only?
And SeanJohn, take it easy on lbk, man, I thought it was a pretty funny typo, actually--"rouge sports" the ones that make you red in the face. Just because you don't agree with his point of view, which is not without its merits, doesn't mean you have to go berating him. After all, I could flame you a lot worse, and then this would stop being very interesting. Might as well agree to have a screaming tantrum match. Just because you are a friend of, or are Christian (I note here the identical IP address--it really picks me when people try to disguise their allegiances/identities) and support his ideas, please don't go on your own little crusade to exterminate dissent. F-in Republicans, I tell ya.
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helmets
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On 8/13/2002
snoball
wrote in from
(65.32.nnn.nnn)
Consumer reports did a survey and testing of bike helmets in
an issue a few months ago. As an aside, they spoke of skateboard
helmets and recommended the ProTec over any other 'skateboard
specific' helmets they had.
I think the onus of wearing a helmet should be on the rider. But,
if we're going to criminalize people for NOT wearing one
(i.e. make it mandatory) then there should be a minimum
rating criteria the manufacturers MUST meet. Otherwise, I could line
a soup bowl with felt and throw on a rope and if you're really
dumb, sell it to you as a 'skate helmet' with very little
repercussion when your dome is shattered.
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Legal helmets
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On 8/13/2002
K-LEE
wrote in from
(68.35.nnn.nnn)
Problem easily solved, Patio. Just take a "legal" helmet logo sticker and put it over the pro-tec logo. No cop could tell the difference. But be careful if you're sponsored by pro-tec, they may kick you off the team.
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"legal" helmets...
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On 8/13/2002 Patio
wrote in from
(63.65.nnn.nnn)
so I'd get a ticket for wearing a pro-tec?
there's some problems there.
I have 4 helmets, 3-protec, and one motorcycle helmet.
I'm gonna keep wearing my protec.
then again Judi(the Giro rep?) is giving away helmets and power bars over on the slalom forum.
I'd wear a Giro if she'd give me one. but I don't really like the feel of the hard, shapeless styrofoam type helmet liners. the softer foam grips my large, oddly shaped head nicely.
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Response to R
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On 8/13/2002
Christian
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
Dear R.,
When the law goes through, the skaters will only be allowed to wear 'legal helmets', that pass government safety standards. And those helmets that pass, therefore, will become the only ones offered for sale and also become much cheaper. This, in turn, will force companies to meet specifications in order to provide a legal hemet if they want to turn a profit and I know that, unless they are on crack, that they will do whatever it takes to sell their product so they comply with the new standards.
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protec helmets...
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On 8/13/2002 patio
wrote in from
(207.16.nnn.nnn)
"I believe" that a protec has good qualities for basic park and ramp riding.
downhillin'/slalom at 25mph+, get a motorcycle helmet.
in any MAJOR high speed/high impact crash, a helmet will help as a "slider" and cushion the head. if that slide goes headfirst into a brick wall or curb, etc...your neck will probably snap, negating the helmet's effectiveness anyway?
I think it is good to wear a helmet. promote helmets. a crappy Walmarket helmet(Mike McGill??what the...) will protect better than no helmet. duh.
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Helmets
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On 8/13/2002 SeanJohn
wrote in from
(157.201.nnn.nnn)
lbk -- what is the cause for your ignorance? From everything that I have read of yours it is stupidity! Learn how to spell. "rough" not "rouge". What do you do for a living? I guarantee that you don't pull in any more than a feeble $60,00 a year, you worthless moron! How stupid are you? and I hope that the bug up your ass dies!
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Pro-Tec jibes
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On 8/13/2002 R.
wrote in from
(156.40.nnn.nnn)
Dan- yeah, according to the BHSI (Bicycle helmet Safety Institute), www.bhsi.com the CPSC (Consumer Products Safety Council) has tested and refused to certify pro-tec helmets to be acceptable/up to their safety standards-- now bear in mind this is for the soft foam lined ones... the ones that use "styrofoam" linings (BMX line) _are_ certified. To be fair to Duane, I don't think he ever said "don't wear Pro-Tec ever", he just said their skate model helmets don't protect as well as helmets that use "styrofoam" inner shells.
The fact , mon ami, is that they don't.
This doesn't mean that they don't provide some protection in most ramp/street situations, the protection is just not as good as it could be, with a very minor adjustment in production. It is also inadequate for impacts involving moderate to high speed, which is what the CPSC and SNELL testers are mostly interested in. May I also point out that most decent bike helmet manu's will replace crashed shells for free or for a reasonable fee.
I don't think it takes a genius to see that knees and heads are pretty different, even in terms of which you would rather have plowing into road gravel when wiping out. Maybe if Pro-Tec put as much foam in their helmets as there is in good ramp pads, then maybe it would be fine. It might start a new trend in hard-shell afros, which is pretty much what it would look like if you put that much foam into a shell.
As to the liability issue, I don't know the legality of it, but there are _plenty_ of companies making helmets that are not CPSC certified, or are still risky despite certification (see BHSI's evaluations). My guess would be it's a caveat emptor thing, and in a risky situation, if a helmet can be shown to have mitigated *some* damage and not fragmented into head-piercing shards, then the burden of blame for head injury will lie with the person undertaking the risk. It's also not like Pro-Tec is putting forward any claims about the protective capacities of their helmets, either. Companies are generally interested in maximizing profit, and if they can produce things for cheaper and weasel their way out of being responsible for shortcomings in their product or production process, then they will.
It's a really good and interesting question though. Any lawyers out there know anything about this? Maybe the bhsi would know.
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