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| Q&A: Slalom Pro Mike Maysey (2489 Posts)
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Flex/Suspension
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On 1/28/2003
Wesley Tucker
wrote in from
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
But seriously,
Mike, you asked about flex for different courses (hey, who's in charge around here anyway?)
Think of it this way: what's the suspension like on a drag racer? Conversely, how much design time goes into the suspension and handling of a Formula 1 car?
Both are completely legitimate forms of racing, but each have very unique and almost completely seperate requirements. Think of the "TS Board" as a drag racer: straight down the course, maximum speed, minimum handling and maximum ability to transmit horsepower to the pavement.
The "GS Board," though, needs to swing wide, stay in control, maintain momentum through the chicanes and still accelerate to the next turn without giving up a minimum of speed.
I would assume that my point here is that we spend a LOT of time talking about flex as a means to facilitate pumping and speed. Don't forget, though, that your flex really does affect how the board turns. Some of the old FibreFlexes were so soft they would literally bottom out on the pavement (really.) You'd look down at your board, though, and the trucks were almost one inch closer together in a short arc and the wheels were turned much sharper than with the board flat. . . all without wheel rub.
So in asking about flex and courses, my best analogy is to not only think of the deck as a means of motion, but also handling: softer board flex more, thus a tighter turn, hard boards will sometimes leave you with your butt hanging out because you want to turn WAY LEFT and it's only going to go a little bit left.
Does this make sense to anyone but me? I hope so.
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Flex vs. Course
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On 1/28/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(66.236.nnn.nnn)
Now I'm asking the question....
I'm rethinking my flex selections based on courses.
It seems as though, the general conscencious is...stiff boards for TS and softer boards for GS.
Is this what everyone else rides?
Does anyone else ride soft for TS and stiff for GS?
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Cow Catchers
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On 1/28/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(205.184.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for pointing that out GBJ. That's something I've noticed about PD's "White Dove" the long nose that deflects cones out from the wheels. I have mentioned it before, not publically, but never really thought it was relavent. But it most certainly is. The cone suck I got at Hood River and the hipper that followed against GC in the consilation round may have been prevented had I been on a longer nosed Turner rather than the snub nosed Fat Boy.
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Cow Catchers
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On 1/27/2003
GBJ
wrote in from
(68.49.nnn.nnn)
The one other advantage I've always found in needle-nosed or cutaway Turners, which is something nobody else ever seems to mention, is that the long, narrow nose is the most effective shape I've ever encountered for preventing cones from jamming up under the front truck. Superman-ing from getting jammed on a cone can really suck, but is one concern that never crosses my mind when I'm on some kind of long-nosed Turner design.
While I'm here, let me applaud all those who are contributing to this particular forum. It's always a pretty good read.
I'd also like to affirm that my own tendancies, when matching boards to courses, is to use much stiffer boards for tighter courses, and flexier or less-stiff boards for GS. I also find flexier boards far more forgiving, while stiffer boards require more focus and concentration to 'drive' safely and properly.
From when the railroads first came to the American West, the locomotives had to be fitted with a wedge or deflection-plow shaped iron device on the front, that became known as a "Cow Catcher". The thought of a railroad locomotive, doing 40 mph, with an iron, wedge-shaped, strainer-framed device on the front, hitting a cow brings some pretty ugly pictures to mind, but I digress. My point is that I've always thought of the long Turner nose as the best "cow catcher" or cone-deflector going.
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Buffalo stance
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(66.236.nnn.nnn)
John,
I'm still learning...I think you might be right about why I prefer a stiffer board for GS and a slightly softer board for TS. Having not been in the sport for nearly as long as you, perhaps I'm missing something. Maybe the flexes should be fairly consistant across the quiver with variations only coming from shape and length? What do you think John?
The modified stance I use did in fact take a while for me to feel comfortable with. I am still changing it to this day. I think from the time I began slalom, April 2001, I skated with a very surfer oriented style. It wasn't until after the Cambria race where you and PD dueled when I realized I needed to change my stance or I wasn't going to be competetive. I think it took roughly a year for me to become comfortable with that stance. I didn't really do anything special to teach it to myself, other than watching riders I looked up to and trying to emulate. One thing I did do was flip the inner truck bolts on my front truck so my foot would naturally find that spot just behind the front truck. I even drew feet on my board with chalk so I could see where my feet should land and remain throughout a run.
I think you're right in saying that if I win a race on a particular board, it doesn't necessarily mean that it will work for anyone else. The best advice I can give, is get together with as many different skaters as you can and ride their boards. This will give you an idea of what works for your style and what doesn't. I rode a whole bunch of different boards last weekend which gave me some entirely new insight into what I want in a slalom board. It also confused me somewhat as well. Softer flex, stiffer flex...I'm not entirely sure what works best for me right now.
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Buffalo stance
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On 1/27/2003
John Gilmour
wrote in from
(68.160.nnn.nnn)
UR13 does have the fullnose as dialed as anyone I have seen ride it- PSR rides his well also- but mostly uses steering motions over the flex. Ur13 will attack a technical tight course on a fullnose adn he stays focused right over the deck at all times- really good form to look at on video.
Mike, like Wesley, I prefered stiffer decks for TS and softer decks for GS- but I didn't own a softer deck until after Breckenridge, everything I had prior to that was stiffer. Do you prefer a stiffer deck for GS because at speed you feel a softer deck twists too much and bounces?.... if so, that is way too soft for me as well.
Wes- I also wonder why a person would ride a cutaway in surf stance unless he is just trying to get up to speed (say going from 7mph- 15 mph).
I felt the cutaway boards while being less technically inclined were great for easier pumping courses that still were reasonably tight and did not require braking. ie for a fast rider a "race level" course might not require braking- while for an intermediate level rider some braking might be involved for the same course. It then looks a bit strange to the intermediate level rider- who sees Mike Maysey win a race on a cutaway and then goes out and buys a cutaway, when for that riders level he would be better served with a fullnose that could "brake" well in a course to control the intermediate level rider's speed to avoid a DQ. In that way both in stance (Likely an intermediate level rider using a Turner classic in a race would be better served by a modified stance as opposed to surf stance) and in choice of deck the intermediate level rider would be better off on a fullnose that would work better for surf stance as well as offer better speed control and top end stability (despite the inherrently shorter wheelbase of the fullnose). Besides for the intermediate level rider- he could use the Fullnose over a wider range of courses TS + GS (except for Hybrid).
The Roe Bottle rocket seems to be more forgiving of stance than the Turner fullnose, the Pocket Pistol I rode, Troy's, is also very predictable and while perhaps not as nimble as the fullnose the Pocket pistol cruises well and serves double duty as Commuter deck and slalom deck and seems to have a damper ride. I do think most people once they get over 17-20 mph should try a modified stance ON ANY DECK to see how it serves them in a tighter TS or if we should ever see a fast Hybrid over 20mph. Mike you adopted a modified stance early on. How long did it take you to feel comfortable? I don't think you were totally comfortable with it at the Presidio (you won anyway) but now you seem to ride very comfortably in this stance. Was there anything you did to make it easier to learn to ride that way?
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34" fullnose
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On 1/27/2003 ur13
wrote in from
(165.247.nnn.nnn)
Mike I'm with you on that one.
Wes...82? Lets see I was 8 years old and in 3rd grade still eating paste.
I ride a fullnose turner more often than a needlenose given that I find the fullnose alot more versitle for different course types. Gilmour did teach me that much.
:-)
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Cutaways Today...
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(66.236.nnn.nnn)
The courses that seem to be suited for these boards are like the Catalina TS, the rest of the courses were set so that you really needed a longer wheelbase, in my opinion, than those boards offered. I rode my rolled edge Turners as much as I could, but sometimes they weren't the fastest boards on a given course. I look forward to the day when we see a 34" Fullnose to attack those more open style courses.
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Cutaways Today...
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(66.236.nnn.nnn)
Most of the guys at the upper level in the Pro division DON'T ride a cutaway style board. I've never seen Chicken get on one, nor Gary, nor Charlie...oh wait...Charlie did ride an ICK at Catalina that was a cutaway style shape...and of course Paul rides that cutaway sometimes as does Gilmore...but very rare is it that those shapes are used by top riders... The courses we've run most of the time on the tour were set up such that you needed a longer board that would carry speed rather than a board that turned through tight cones.
Maybe it's because most of the top riders have surf stance, maybe it's because of the open style courses, maybe I don't know what I'm talking about.
Heheh
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Cutaways and wheelbite
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On 1/27/2003
Wesley Tucker
wrote in from
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
Chris,
I see your point. Again, coming from a parallel stance perspective, wheelbite is not something I've dealt with in a long long time.
Then again, I always considered wheelbite an issue best dealt with by using risers. Whether angled or flat, raising the board up usually allows the clearance to keep the wheels from eating the board (or is is the other way around?)
Oh, as to your statement, "Honestly before you mentioned it i never thought of a cutaway as a parallel only stance deck, the thought never even crossed my mind at all." You see, Chris, my friend, you are just a child. A talented child, I grant you, but still just a child . . .
Heh, heh, heh.
Hey, dude, where were you in '82? :-)
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cutaways
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On 1/27/2003 ur13
wrote in from
(165.247.nnn.nnn)
Wesley, I see people buying cutaway shapes (non turners mostly) for the increased wheel clearence that the cutaway shape gives you. Something like the older bottle rockets have a large platform for your feet and the cutaways give you lots of wheel room. Some of the newer bottlerockets have wider tails and smaller noses making for the ebst of both worlds.
Honestly before you mentioned it i never thought of a cutaway as a parallel only stance deck, the thought never even crossed my mind at all. I always saw it as another way deck designers dealt with the nasty wheelbite issue.
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Cutaways today
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On 1/27/2003
Wesley Tucker
wrote in from
(152.163.nnn.nnn)
Ok. I still have one question, though, about today's skaters. First, let's remember this isn't the "Turner Q&A" forum (Sorry, Chris and Mike :-) There's several other manufacturers building full cutaways: Roe, Ick and Pocket Pistol come to mind.
I guess my question is what's the advantage to a skater today who has only ridden surf, will probably only ride surf and yet decides the Bottle Rocket or the Stealth is the board to buy? Even with the modified stance Gilmour rides with one foot in front of the other and toe touching heel doesn't appear to me to be more suited to a full cutaway as opposed to a full nose.
Y'all see what I'm getting at?
Oh, I also found it curious as to Maysey's preferences for flex: soft for tight and hard for GS. That's exactly opposite of what I would choose. Since flex seriously affects a board's turning radius, I always ride a softer board to get out and around the wider offset cones. The tight courses where you really want a killer cone-per-second rate would be a harder board where flex and snap give greater and greater acceleration.
Oh, well. I guess that's why we race: to find out who's got it dialed in right today!
Thank's y'all. This is fun.
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Thanks JG
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for stepping in here John and adding your expertise. I know you know WAY more about Turner than I do and I appreciate your willingness to share your knowledge here.
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Turner Wheels or ... ?
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Some guys do ride Flashbacks...I've never tried them, but some folks seem to skate them very well. New developments...keep your eyes peeled...there's some new stuff in the works.
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Turner Wheels or ... ?
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On 1/27/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Stevie,
Everyone I know who skates slalom, skates Avalons for almost everything. The only time Cambrias really enter the picture is if the courses get really tight, like 6' and below.
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gilmour
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On 1/27/2003 ur13
wrote in from
(165.247.nnn.nnn)
I was hoping JG would chime in about the needlenose/fullnose......
:-)
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Turner Shapes
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On 1/27/2003
John Gilmour
wrote in from
(68.160.nnn.nnn)
Wesley- hope this may shed some light on the Turner shapes of the last two years. All the newer shapes must seem puzzleing to someone who has been around the older shapes for so long ;)
While I was taking orders for Turner decks- prior to Bob's laminating again, I wanted to get an idea of people's foot sizes. (I had a friend - Jon Shea- who was 6'6" tall with size 17 feet- I have some video of him riding- he rode a modified parallel stance-very fast guy. He could barely get his feet on the board (he owned 3 Turner shapes from the 1970's-1990's.) Another one of my friends, Tod Drescher is 6'5" tall 250 lbs size 16 feet- he would borrow my full nose from time to time- he also could barely fit on the board and he also rode modified parallel.) My concerns were that unless you had about a size 8-10 foot you might have trouble fitting on the Turners. (Terence- foot size 11.5? -had trouble getting his feet inbound on the Older Turner shapes)
As you know, Bob made boards pretty much to order- custom- and I wanted to make sure that there was enough variety in the shapes to accommodate each customer's feet. In the 1970's Skaters were younger and had smaller feet-many rode Vans sneakers which were small in outline for the given size. We also weighed less then :(
It wasn't a matter of simply moving the wheelbase around- as doing so actually changes the "geometry" of each Turner Handmade- because the noses on the needlenose plunge so aggressively (Part of this helps to stiffen the front torsionally- as fiberglass has more strength when molded into a curved-cupped shape). So moving the trucks back too far off the nose resulted in "dead board feel" and moving too far forward shot the camber through the roof. But place the trucks where they should be and you got a lively- responsive "bow" that had just the right "flex return" and "flex travel" for a given course.
The Needlenoses were intended to have more flex travel (Distance from uncambered height to point of deepest flex) So that they could be ridden by parallel stance users who wanted to load the board into the turn (allowing them to handle offset gates better). Also if you were to ride modified parallel or slightly more surf stance you could still flex the deck deeper to keep the deck "down" for more extended- hybrid like gates- provided you did not have to ride on the "neck".
The Fullnose had a wider nose area for foot placement and had less flex travel- for quicker "flex return" in tighter gates at speed. It handled tighter more technical courses that involved shifting across the fall line better than the needlenose- while the needle nose did well for use in offsets (Where the deck had to stay in the flexed down position).
So when Bob and I were talking about new shapes over the phone- the broader shoulders of the newer Turners were intended to allow people with larger feet to ride the needlenose decks without feeling like they were standing on the thinnest part of the nose. (The downside was a concentration of force and flex at the beginning of the "neck" of the needlenoses). You had less room for error in mounting those decks. Later "blending the shoulders" in sooner and beefing up the neck seemed to give a better mix. Also the camber was lowered as it was excessive in some of the earliest of the new production- IMHO the early production camber made the decks feel tippy and they tended to slide out due to a higher center of gravity. Later Bob made a flat needlenose- I think -Mike, you have one. I thought that being totally flat seemed to remove a lot of life out of the decks- much like mounting the decks too close in- but it must be cool to own a flat Turner.
Several other interpretations of the fullnose came through the pike- many of which I did not feel the way I liked them to- though others may have liked them (they had some unusual deeper cutaways in the nose section and some with higher camber). Ur13 got the first Fullnose that I rode and I thought felt correct. Later I got a beautiful red one at LaCosta 2002 (Thanks Howard!) which is one of the reasons I really wanted to get Turner going again as I was down to a single fullnose deck. That red deck is correct and I think I can safely say that the materials, craftsmanship, and designs initally developed through Bob Turner safety live on within his brother, Vince Turner, who I hope will continue working in the family business- and as some encouragement to Vince I think that there will be demand for the classic decks as Grass roots racing goes more National.
The difficulty was in trying to make a new shape that would fit larger feet (Ideally to have a shape that would fit up to a size 12 comfortably- without increasing the wheelbase- that was the tall order)
The possible solution?
What seemed to end up was a fewer just enlarged fullnoses for wider gates (most likely built to fit the wider FCR courses) - that obviously would fit larger feet. And perhaps in the end the best solution for the Turner rider with larger feet is to ride one of these larger shapes- but with a slightly more turny truck combination to ride the same courses.
All that being said- you do see the ocassional Newer rider riding a turner cutaway in a surf stance, and for the most part I would hope it is a temporary thing until the rider adjusts. I was concerned after watching the Cambria Race that a rider might not adjust so the drive for a new shape manifested there somewhat. Chris Chaput who always rode surf stance, did try riding in modified parallel at Cambria (on a needlenose) for the first time and was able to handle the course at a pretty good speed (unfortunately DQ'ing when he charged a little too hard) but I don't see that many NEW Riders riding modified parallel or offset parallel much except for Ur13, Vlad, and Mike Maysey. It would be nice to see more people try different stances- I think riding that way changes a racers outlook a bit.
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Turner Wheels or ... ?
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On 1/26/2003
Stevie
wrote in from
(68.4.nnn.nnn)
Mike - OK, you use Avalons only. I'm getting a pretty clear picture that basically everyone does (w/ some Cambria's here & there). Is there another good wheel out there in the slalom universe that other reputable folk use? Is it time to buy stock in Turner? Any developments ahead that we should know about?
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FLEX
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On 1/26/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
I prefer softer boards for tight and progressively harder boards up through my GS boards...
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Trucks, Kingpins, Hesters, and all that...
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On 1/26/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Chuck,
I know some guys that have changed kingpins but they did so in order to accomidate larger/softer bushings. I don't think using hard bushings and loosening them will give the right kind of turning ability that softer bushings tighten down somewhat can give.
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More Cutaways/Fullnoses
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On 1/26/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Wesley,
I'm not sure if I understand your question, but... As far as flex, I like a little more flex for tight and progressively stiffer through my GS boards. The shape differences between the cutaway and fullnose, to my understanding, had everything to do with BP riding parallel and TR skating surf style. I'd say a 30" wheel base is a 30" wheelbase. The only variable I consider in flex and room on the deck for my feet.
Did I come anywhere near answering your question?
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Avalons
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On 1/26/2003
Mike Maysey
wrote in from
(204.30.nnn.nnn)
Leo,
I use Avalons all the time...almost exclusively. Use the soft ones for rough roads and the hard ones for smooth.
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flex
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On 1/26/2003 ur13
wrote in from
(165.247.nnn.nnn)
I'll let Mike take this one about flex but I can say all of us on the Turner team have different flex decks for differetn applications, I usually carry 2-3 decks to a race, each is a very different flex combined with shape. The white fullnose I ride now is stiffer than my red fullnose and each deck is for a different feel, my black/green needlenose is yet a different flex as it should be.
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Trucks, Kingpins, Hesters, and all that...
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On 1/25/2003
Chuck
wrote in from
(204.32.nnn.nnn)
This question is for Mike and anyone else that may have an answer...have any of you ever tried putting in a longer kingpin and using harder bushings, but running the trucks looser (hence the kingpin swap)? I am wondering if this will still allow me to turn but give me more return-toward-center...might help me with my flatland pumping I reckon. Maybe this is a question for some of the bigger...200+...guys?
Wesley...you want a Hester that really works, try one of the Roes!
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CC/FNs and Flex
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On 1/25/2003
Wesley Tucker
wrote in from
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
Chris,
Sort of helps:-)
I do have one question for you (and Mike, too, since it's his Q&A forum!): do all you Turner Team riders have boards that have the same flex? Different shapes, different wheelbases and difference truck/wheel arrangements, but no difference in degree of flex?
By the way, for the record, "soft" doesn't have to mean "gushy" and "hard" doesn't necessarily mean "inflexible." Stepanek will attest to this, but I have a quiver of several cutaways (Icks and a Summer Ski,) that have varying degrees of flex. Some courses are best suited to my red Ick, (kind of soft,) some to the white Ick (medium) and then others to my orange Summer Ski (hard, but still very flexible.)
Of course, this doesn't even begin to address the applications for my Hester H-Bomb, which has completely different but occasionally appropriate flex characteristics. As soon as I set it up with some new hardware, I think it'll be a very good Hybrid/Giant board, even though it's 24 years old.
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