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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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LD pump decks
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On 11/9/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Airin,
I took a look at the boards on the LongBoard Larry site. Most seem to be concaved or pintailed and with holes way too far forward. As already mentioned, in my opinion, concaves are not comfortable or convenient for the long haul. I've tried to figure out why many times in the past and came to these conclusions: If the board is strong enough not to sag it doesn't need the concave for support. The concave hampers foot movement, and also reduces the "pedal effect" mentioned by Peters. It also makes the feet more tired, I think. I never liked concave for any type of pumping, except maybe for when pumping on street boards(however, I find that street boards are superior for pump-climbing steeperhills). Along the same lines, I dont like pintails. As Peters mentioned a while back, the wide back gives a 'pedal' or strong torsional push to the rear wheels which definitely increases power. This is significantly reduced if the rear of the deck is too narrow...as well as when the front trucks are located too close to the nose. Its the same principle: There is a need for a pedal on both ends.
Now you have peaked my curiosity for longer cruisers! It's one area I haven't tested too much as my assumption has always been to start with a suitable wheel base...which I thought could not be longer than about 30". So, I think I'll try a 48incher pretty soon. Anyway, best with everything and keep pumping!
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longboardlarry decks
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
BTW, Al you can see the two decks I am talking about here:
http://www.longboardlarry.net/boards/index.html
specifically the "Otter" and the "Kahakai Cruiser"
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good points Al
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ah, I understand what you mean by the backwards facing now. If it wasn't just bucketing down rain right now I'd rush right out and give that a try....soon though.
As for the longer boards, I really appreciate what you are saying about the wb. At the same time I am trying to figure out what it is on the five footer that makes it work so well for the LD. James Peters also has had some experience pumping a 60 inch board; I wonder what his thoughts are on this. He has also gone distance on 47 inch decks. His insights would be useful.
I want to have Larry build me a board specifically for pumping so getting the specs worked out is important to me. I don't have space for too many boards at any one time in my quiver so I like to get pretty close to what I am imagining when I get a new board built. The two cruisers both work very well for LD but I am just thinking that a little more stiffness would serve me well. I am expecting that it will allow even more of the energy to translate into the forward momenetum hence the idea of a board just for the LD disipline.
So again how I arrived at the idea of 48 inches was given that 60 is good and 43 is nearly as good, I figured 48 would be a nice middle point ...something still a bit portable and not too heavy but with ability to hold the momentum like the longer board does.
It is really fun to play with this, dare I say "new", type of skateboarding, eh? Not really much to go on except our own experiments and the knowledge we share.
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LD riding styles
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On 11/8/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Arin,
Regarding riding styles, I think they come in the same way as the various board set-ups..by monkeying around and having fun and trying something new. Yes, I do ride occasionally facing parcially backward, but always have to keep my face somewhat forward facing..to avoid a fall I don't even want to think about!. The motion is almost identical to the motion that an ice skater or in-liner makes when riding backwards, and is really no big deal. Yes, you do need to convert your thinking to maintain the normal pump motion while facing a generalized backward direction, but its not that difficult once you are very proficient with normal pump riding. The problem comes when you are tired from normal pumping, and make the switch to the backward style, there is a temptation to change the direction of pump motion. Confusion with the motion can creep in and cause a loss of momentum.
As you must already know, the general pump motion, once going smoothly , flows in a ryhmic circular fashion. After maintaining this motion, slowly slide you feet until your toes start to point backwards somewhat. Naturally, your heels will start leading in maintaining the same motion as before. So continuity is the key to this type of riding... that is.. switching positions and body directions without losing momentum, speed or the circular orientated rhythum normally associated with pump carving. I guess in-liners have a better idea of how the falls feel like..luckily i'm not yet experienced in this.
When I have some time, I think I'll make a super long board to test this ultra long deck concept. I'm just a little skeptical, that the trucks, being 35+ inches apart can give the same quality of ride, as trucks spaced at 27". Also,everything you mentionioned about momentum, etc..is also part of my experience with LD riding. Short boards under about 38" are no good.(Although they are great for general pump carving and pump sprints) I have spent many hours trying to convice myself that I can make a small, superlight board, that will be superior for longer distances. But the old problem of space always surfaces. When you're tired, there's no place to move to. So the lightness of the board doesn't make up for the increased mobility offered by the longer deck. Anyway, that's my thought on that subject! Have fun!
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very cool stuff Al
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On 11/8/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I find it really interesting to read about your experiences with LD pumping Al. There are still so few people that pump on longer boards for distance. Its great to connect here!
The reason I am thinking of going the 48 inch deck route is because I currently pump both a 60 inch board and a 43 inch board. I love how the five footer carries its momentum so I am pretty sold on the longer deck. The 43 is a little quicker but doesn't seem to hold onto the generated speed as well as the 60. Given that, I thought I'd try for a 48 incher.
I am skating pretty light weight decks being only 125 lbs myself. The boards are baltic birch....9 ply ....so it feels very 'floaty' when a good pump gets going.
Its all trial and error at this point and I agree with you that one has to try to find that sweet 'gear ratio' that suits their weight, strength and pumping style.
I was particularly interested in the variety of stances that you use when LD skating....I am most intriqued with the backwards position. Do you actually generate the pump while facing backwards? I am definitely going to experiment more with moving around on my board when going for the multiple k's.
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LD Pumping
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On 11/8/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Arin and Peters,
Regarding set-ups for long distance, I also continue to tweek and test the multitude of combinations possible. But I guess this is what makes the whole thing fun! I have a 3kilometer course close to my house, here in the Dominican Republic with a little upgrade for testing the set-ups. I like proving the set-ups first on slight up-grades..to give a quick indication of whether changes made are generally better or worse than the former. Now I have torsion cruised on almost every length board... even decks about 18" long from Toys R US!however, I cant remember using anything over about 45". Actually, when I read about your milage Peters, I'm definately impressed, because, I thought, for a while, I was the only long distance pumper out there! I never came across this blog before,so was somewhat in the dark as to other long distance riders.
My summary after many tests are as I wrote to Arin, that is, about 43" is a perfect size deck. I would probably prefer a little shorter to a little longer though. Why? Because as both of you,I'm sure, already know, that the truck spacing is very important for torsion riding. If the trucks are too close it's like riding a bike in 1st gear. If too far apart, in 10th. However, this distance should be dicided by your size and weight, and also by your strength. Really its very comparable to long distance cycling in this regards. The problem with a 48" board though, is that, I think the trucks/wheels need to be spaced in the 24-27" range. If you have a 5-6"nose...that will leave a huge tail!(with a 48" board) However, I might indeed be wrong in this assumption because I never really pumped long distance on anything over this 43 incher.
As for the Sidewinders, I think they are only available now on the Hydraboards, not sold separately. And this is unfortunate for those who want to ride LD, because alot of custom work is necessary to tweek the trucks, decks etc.. for good LD pumping. I mentioned, I used 2 insert parts on the rear truck...just as an experiment, getting rid of the riser pad that wasn't necessary.. and it worked surprisingly well. The added weight didn't seem to make much of a difference and I actually kind of enjoyed the feel of a little weight on the rear end, as I have said I ride waaay forward.
for riding style, I also do some telemarking during my rides with both feet almost equally together, pointing forward.( with one heel just a few inches behind the other for some stability. So too, I switch my feet abit and ride butt first sometimes, just like the ice skaters do, just to add a little diversity and to change muscle groups. Anyway, torsion crusing is a blast, as you all know. I'll throw you an update from time to time if I find anything interesting in these regards, and I'll keep my eye on this new site!
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back to ya
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On 11/7/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for the detailed replies guys. You've given me lots to think about. Right now I have two set ups that I use for long distance pumping and though they are both working quite nicely for me I can't resist tweaking and experimenting.
I am a big LBL fan and as such both my decks are custom boards by Larry. The Kahakai cruiser is a five foot board the I first learned flatland pumping on. It is generally set up with 180 R2's and I have tried Gumballs, Flashies, Grippins and Avalons on this deck. I run very very loose trucks and hangers are flipped cause I just prefer the smooth turn that gives me.
As well I have been pumping the Otter which is a 43 inch board that also sports 180mm Randals. I'm thinking I may just have to try some 150's on this board to see how that feels.
Both these decks were initially meant for flatland cruising and thus have a little more flex than a long distance pumping board might need. I am mulling over the idea of having Larry build me a designated flatland pumper and as such am coming to you, the distance skaters, for ideas and input.
I see the value of the width over the front trucks now as its true a lot of the time this is where my front foot stays. And I do really enjoy the longer boards for the distance, as Al mentioned it allows for changing postitions and as well seems to carry the momentum more efficiently over the long haul. I'm thinking a 48 inch board with only slight flex would be sweet. It sounds like both Al and James seem to feel that concave isn't the necessary in a long distance pumping deck. That's interesting. So what about some subtle camber?
James it would great to hit the seawall for some skating if you came up our way later this month - do keep me posted. I also hope to make it down for one of your skates next season. In the meantime I'm sure I'll be able to amuse myself by dreaming about the perfect long distance pumper.
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hc, airin, al, pumpin freaks!
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On 11/7/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey hc - best time so far on the mile is 4:11, that's accdg to Munson. I don't know my mile, but if the NW rain ever lets up I'll go check...crikey I'm about to lose my mind here, or just move south!! The other recorded time/distance is the 25-miler this summer, I completed that in 2:04:17 with 95% pumping, 5% cheater pushes, and Munson did it in 2:16:08 without touching ground. We'll be doing that again July 2006 so maybe you can make a trip up?!
airin! I'm hopeful we'll still make a Stanley Park visit late in Nov, will let ya know... narrow's okay in front, but personally I like width in back of the deck for the "gas pedal" effect, having a platform to push the board forward. i've tried turning a speedboard into a pumping board, no flex of course, but having that really narrow nose to mount huge wheels (97s--101s) and not get the dreaded bite. But I still prefer having the option to stand almost directly over the front truck from time to time (like Al here) so the "pin nose" never worked out for the long haul.
150s: much preferred for pumping flatland, though in slalom it gets a lot narrower as you already know... the 150s seem to better fit the flow of a multi-mile trail ride, assuming your deck is anywhere in the 38"--45" range. only if I know there's going to be some serious hills in the ride would I go back to the R180 hangar. My fall/winter rides have been a really stiff Arbor pintail and a 41" stiff LibTech, so I think in the end I like just a little flex, but definately not 'sag.'
Al, you been riding some distances man! 43", no concave, and a little flex... that sounds exactly like my custom Insect. I'm still completely sold on Carvers, and just started testing out RTR trucks a month ago...but I'm curious about these Sidewinders, they seem kind of heavy, no? Any links where to buy just the trucks? I found completes at skatesonhaight.com with 'em but I don't need another deck, just the trucks. Do you run that funky truck both in front and in back? Great to see this stuff takin' off!
jp - pavedwave.org
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Pumping advice for Arin
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On 11/7/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Arin,
The only qualifications I have in pump carving is the 20k I did last Summer and can give a few insights on that set-up. First I used a custom-made 43" longboard with no concave and just a little flex. The longer length boards are better for long distance rides because you can change position during the ride after the ankles and knees get a little tired from the redundant exercise of over an hour or two. In my opinion one of the most important elements to good torsion pumping is the length of spacing between the trucks/wheels and I I used about a 27" separation between wheels on a 43" board, with about a 6-6 1/2" nose. In general, its good to have a long nose on the deck because most of my type of pumping is done on the front half of the board, usually with one foot a little over the front wheels. I use the back half only when I get tired. Also, I change styles of pumping, during the rides, sometimes riding as if I were slalom skiing with my feet very close together. Othertimes, I separate my legs abit and use different muscle groups.
I never pumped much with Randals, although I have ridden them a bit. I now only use Sidewinder trucks, as mentioned in the previous post. Actually, for the 20K, I used a modified, or beefed-up version of the Sidewinder, removing the rear riser pad and inserting 2 Sidewinder parts into the rear truck to give even more flexibility than normal to the back trucks. I think I also used at least a few Independent conical bushings, but don't exactly remember the bushing set-up. This created a 3 bushing, 3 pivot rear truck, which was a bit heavy but seemed to work very well. The extra weight of the rear truck actually helped keep the rear end down, as it balanced somewhat the forward riding style. I also kept the front trucks a little tighter than the rear, and in general used the rear more for stabilizing the board than for propulsion. With the Sidewinders there is enough propulsion drawn from the front trucks to keep the momentum going for about 80% of the ride. Also, the wheels are important for long distance riding and I found the best, so far, are 3DM Avalons, 68mm on normal 7" hangers. On smaller slalom boards I reduce the distance between trucks even farther with a separation between wheels of about 24-26", but use wider trucks of 8 or 9". So, in general, I think the proper distance between trucks, a nose of about 5-6 1/2 inches, medium flex with no concave, forward pump style, good Avalon wheels (White ones) and good riding surface make pumping pretty easy. Oh..I almost forgot...a skinny board will probably make your foot collide with the wheels if you aren't careful, since most of the riding is done directly above the front wheels...And worrying about this ruins the ride. Anyway, this is the best set-up I've found for long distance torsion pumping. Hope it helps.
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pumping set up thoughts
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On 11/7/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
I've been experimenting a lot lately with flatland distance pumping set ups. So here's a few questions I have:
1) Would it be a bad thing to have a slightly narrow deck for pumping? With loose trucks a narrower deck would help reduce wheel bite, eh?
2) I usually use 180 R2's, soft bushings and run the trucks very loose for pumping. I wondering about trying 150mm R2's. How would they differ in terms of going the distance?
3) Slightly stiff seems better than too flexy in a deck, right?
4) Longer boards seem to carry the momentum better over the long haul. So I'm thinking a 48 inch deck would be preferrable to a 30 inch deck over the course of a 10km pump, for example. Your thoughts on this?
any other ideas on creative gear set up ideas for long distance pumping?
thanx
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Advanced pumping trucks
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On 11/7/2005
Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
If anyone wants good pumping trucks they need to demo a Sector9 Hydra board with sidewinder trucks. Personally speaking, I used these trucks to pump a little over 16miles in 2hrs. 15mins. non-stop, without putting my feet on the ground. I planned on trying to do 10k but kept going when I found I wasn't too tired. Anyway, the Sidewinders are new and revolutionary for the art of pumping, and even beginners can learn in a much shorter time how to pump cruise.
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pissing
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On 11/5/2005 brad
wrote in from
United States
(142.167.nnn.nnn)
pissing you pull it out and let it ripp mabey even spell your name if you get god enof
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trucks
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On 11/1/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Cheers Peters,
just gotto get some now.
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the mile
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On 10/31/2005
hc
wrote in from
United States
(168.149.nnn.nnn)
peters, got a LDP PR for the mile? anyone else?
how about a skogging mile personal best?
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wedgie
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On 10/28/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
hey munchh, X in front, S in back, and IMHO I'd use 2 angled risers both front and back. Here's Chaput's diagram (go with configuration #2) Experiment with more/less angle until you find what works for you.
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slalom trucks
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On 10/28/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Hi, looking at buying some Tracker RTS/RTX trucks, can anyone enlighten me?
To set them up slalom style, will they need wedging, or are they ready to go and thats the whole point????
Cheers.
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Flipping Randals
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On 10/10/2005 Jim R
wrote in from
United States
(68.221.nnn.nnn)
Hey all...
as far as flipping randals-- don't touch the baseplates ... reversing them might be dangerous....
what ya do is pull off the hangers and flip them over--- but this will make them LESS turny...a bit more stable; but probably not that good for pumping....
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box plans?
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On 10/8/2005 Kris
wrote in from
United States
(24.151.nnn.nnn)
does any one have free box plans or know where i could get them?
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pumping gone bad
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On 10/8/2005 Jon
wrote in from
United States
(69.108.nnn.nnn)
i fell off my skateboard today at HB trying to practice how to pump on flat land and u know what happened? ... i fell off my skateboard infront of people because i think i did an unexpected power slide or something.. most embarassing moment of my life. some guy was laughing at me and i wanted to kick his ass but i didnt, because he was with his friends. most embarassing moment though.. but i still want to learn how to pump and nothing wont stop me trying. can anyone give me some tips.. i have the stinger board by skatedesigns inc. 27"X10"
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Link. Fixed
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On 9/27/2005
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.224.nnn.nnn)
I hate these damn UI's wioth their own syntax for links! GAG me. :D
http://www.cyask8.com
well does old fashioned HTML work? let's see!
cYa
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Pumping vs Skogging Threads
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On 9/27/2005
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.224.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for buying a deck! I've only made a couple of hundred. Not out to make millions with them. Just decided that turning people on to my pumping and skogging is a cool way to share my skateboard heritage.. I'd like to go into great detail about my pursuit of skogging but it aint right here. Could someone push(no pun intended) to get a new "skogging" thread going. The potential of something so simple going mainstream as a "skateboard" additive is HUGE in my estimation. It's perfect since most of the skateboard industry today laughs at this kind of stuff. F*CK 'EM . iT'S HEALTHY EXERCISE, GETTING A GOOD SKOG AND PUMP has its own merits. My videos on my site suck. I got a pro that will do my next set. I'm getting crazier on the skog turning one footed stuff and skogging backwards at times makes it a real treat to see down the Mission Beach boardwalk. My GF rides her blades behind me and shakes her head hearing many people saying, LOOK! THAT'S COOL. HE'S NUTS. LOOK AT HIS TORSO GYRATE AND NOW HE'S SWITCHIN FOOT TO PEDDLE. WTF? OMG? ;D
when they get a skogging thread going, i'll camp out here often :D
cheers mates. keep strokin it and remember, the key to skogging is forward foot placement and body aimed down an imaginary fall line that is your absolute direction of travel. Think body postioned at 12 oclock, slightly leaning forward and matching strokes on both sides getting your arms to comfortably glide. OK. video coming soon. i'm stoked!!! Maintain 15mph for 2 miles and breath deep as you shed pounds and have an exhilarating ...
Click here for link
cYa
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back side
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On 9/25/2005 Ianf
wrote in from
United States
(66.93.nnn.nnn)
thx, I have read the article like a billion times and it helps a TON. I still need advice on my backside turn.
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risers diagram and study vids
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On 9/25/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Ian, recently I've uploaded a link to Gesmer's 1989 pumping article (silverfish recently re-posted it), and list of links to some short pumping clips. Download and watch as many slalom vids as you can (search the slalom forum for "video") - that's relatively low cost study if you have a good connection.
I also put up Chaput's angled-riser diagram toward the bottom of the 'Gear' page which should visually clarify the proper wedging for pumping and carving.
Flipping the Randal baseplates from their standard config, you'll get some weird results. If you eventually want turnier pumping over fast downhill stability, I'd see if someone will swap their 150 hangars for your 180s, the narrower width will be instantly easier to pump. -jp
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I need a bit more
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On 9/25/2005 Ianf
wrote in from
United States
(66.93.nnn.nnn)
thanks for all ur help guys but I still need alittle more. I am starting to get the hang of my front side turn but I cant do a backside for the life of me. also, a little while back I thought a reads somthing about flipping randal trucks around (they are faced outwards right now on mine) so that that work better and also somthing about angled risers
thx
-ian
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pumping a big board
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On 9/20/2005
Julien
wrote in from
United States
(129.133.nnn.nnn)
loosen the trucks (or buy some new bushings, Bones have great rebound) and wiggle rhythmically
check out Chris Yandall's pumpyourdeck.com for some inspiration
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How to Pump