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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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Measuring wheel
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On 8/2/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I almost forgot that I had two of these measuring wheels from different makers. They are pretty darm accurate for what we are doing. They make marking off a course pretty easy. At 176 feet, even we are off by 21 inches in our course and/or our trigger-finger, we are till within 1% accuracy.
Tape switches and the Chronocone would work great for just about any length, but I'd still like to see us all run the 176 foot course.
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Groovin' in the Flat Slot
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On 8/2/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
The neat thing about Chaput coming down was that he hand delivered 2 sets of Gumballs. The other neat thing was seeing his 5 year old keep daddy inline :D Chaput is showing he's a world class dad too!
My average speed was around the 20mph mark with Chaput's(fresher legs) slightly better. We were timing ourselves thru the course and after about 15 -20 runs it became obvious that the average was hovering around that speed.
We also did a power skogging run mixed with pumping for a mile thru the summer mission beach boardwalk crowds. jungle skating !
I never pushed with one leg as hard as I did for the timed runs. i was amazed to see that the differnce within the 176' timing area to be tiny between pushing and pumping. at least from a seasoned veteran perspective on blasting the flats on a skateboard, you young whippersnappers should be able to blaze into the 24-25mph with ease? :D
Thanks Chris for a memorable occassion!
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Simplify it
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On 8/2/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
If we standardize on 176 feet, we can make our calcs super simple.
Chris and I ran only an 176 foot course. The mph = 120 / our time. We know our distance is in feet. Our stopwatch only gives us seconds. This makes life simple.
120 / 6.000 = 20.00 mph
120 / 6.160 = 19.48 mph (My best pushing run so far)
120 / 6.630 = 18.10 mph (My best pumping run so far)
120 / 6.648 = 18.05 mph (This is Dong's time over 176 feet)
120 / 7.000 = 17.14 mph
120 / 7.500 = 16.00 mph
120 / 8.000 = 15.00 mph
I wasn't at Bicknell (I was in the Bahamas with family) but I believe they had 30 cones on 6 foot centers. There were 29 cone spacings (which is 174 feet) plus the start and finish. Richy's fastest raw time was 6.22 seconds. That was a steep hill but the tight settings slows you down a bit. I'm not sure that 176 feet in 5 seconds (24mph) is possible but we'll see.
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Steve, go back to math class
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On 8/2/2004
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
United States
(15.252.nnn.nnn)
Your example of going over a 44' course in .875 seconds:
Your speed calculation: 26.25 MPH
Correct speed calculation: 34.29 MPH
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Two different course lengths
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On 8/2/2004
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
United States
(15.252.nnn.nnn)
Silversurfer:
Michael Dong's speed trap was for a 44 ft course at 1.6 seconds.
Thats 18.05 MPH
Chris Chaput's speed trap was for 176 ft at 6.16 sec
Thats 19.48 MPH
Use the "official" formula or the following formula for MPH:
(DistanceInFeet / TimeInSeconds) X (60MPH / 88FeetPerSecond) = MPH
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Trap Speeds...
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On 8/2/2004
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(24.62.nnn.nnn)
so if 4.0 sec = 30 mph
how fast was micheal dong
going at 1.6 seconds?
is he using the same protocol
as Chris Chaput and Chris Yandal?
how can you go more than 30 mph in
under 2 seconds on a skateboard?
i think that's faster than some cars.
i know that Michael Dong is the cyber
slalom champ, but damn that is impressive!
But if times are going to be in the
one to ten second range wouldn't a
longer course be better, or no?
Or keep it at that length for the pump event
and add a 1/2 mile push or pump sprint,
just an idea might not be a good one.
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Congradulations...
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On 8/2/2004
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(24.62.nnn.nnn)
to Joshua Burt for completing all
three stages of the Portland Pusher
series so far!
Good luck in the next race!
Josh - can you give me any tips for my
up coming 7 mile push race
(nyc central park - may 2005)?
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Hmmmm
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On 8/2/2004 Dave G
wrote in from
United States
(207.69.nnn.nnn)
Chris's
Unlike most I'm excited to have a newly paved section of asphalt, (followed by an extremely steep section!) This whole idea is a great instance to get some results pn some set-ups!I'll pull out the survey station to find out how "flat the section is,but I think you've given me a target to shoot!!!!
Enkoy,
Dave G
Been soo busy, I need to skate!
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Setting the trap
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On 8/2/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Great weekend in San Diego with my daughter, Chris Yandall and his son Justin. We marked off an 176 foot section of the boardwalk. We used a 25 foot tape measure, pulled out to 22 feet, 8 times over. This is a nice length for sprint/pump. We used a handheld stopwatch and got some pretty consistent times. The concrete was a little sandy and I didn't have any pads so I didn't push it too far.
I tried one run just pushing through the course pretty fast. It took me 6.16 secs for a speed of 19.48 mph. It took me 6.63 seconds to pump through it for a speed of 18.1 mph. It's not going to be that easy to go much faster than 20mph unless we some guys who are really dedicated to the craft.
I wouldn't mind seeing an unlimited push right up to the trap. That way "coasters" would be slower than their fastest push but "pumpers" could actually accelerate past their push speed and top out over 20mph.
It's going to be tough to do 176 feet in 5 seconds no matter how you propel yourself.
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The Trap online rankings
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On 8/1/2004
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
One time already logged on Ncdsa.com's online The Trap rankings. I didn't realize the times would be so short (1.6 sec).. that pretty much rules out the handheld stopwatch timing method.
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Obispo - Sunday, August 01, 2004
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On 8/1/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
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Portland Pusher
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On 7/31/2004
Joshua Burt
wrote in from
United States
(67.160.nnn.nnn)
The Portland Pusher series began due to a conversation with Paul Fujita.We were talking about the Skate Across America event,and wondered if anyone would do a marathon-style race from one end of Portland to the other.I decided to take action,and the series was born.The idea was to build up to the cross-town race with several smaller races,each one increasing in distance.The first race was only 3 1/2 miles on an almost completely flat bike path.Everyone pushed the entire course.The second race was 5 miles,with some small climbs and descents.Most racers were able to pump the uphill sections and pass others on the 'downhill'.The third race was held on the same course as the first,but going both ways(there and back).By then everyone had their own formula for going faster,and it proved to be the closest race so far.The next race is going to be the big one.14-18 miles with several different sections to negotiate(flat,uphill,downhill,sidewalk cracks,street crossings,etc.).The rules?Racers over 40 and under 20 start at the front,everyone else starts behind them.You can push,pump,or tick-tack for speed,but you can't get on a bus or get in a car to move ahead.For the longer races there are checkpoints where the racers numbers are taken down to ensure there are no cheaters.Entry is free,and all prizes are donated by generous sponsors.Oh,did I mention it's rain or shine?The first race included both.The others have been sunny and dry,which made it easier to pump for speed.The next race is on hold due to lack of sponsor donations.I've milked most of the sponsors for all I can,so I'm hoping to gain new interest in the series and continue with this brutal format.Ultimately,I'd like to hold a race to the beach from Portland,but for now we'll stay in town.
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More figures for Flatland Speed Records
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On 7/31/2004
Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
-I also like the idea of practicing on the CyberSlalom course. Just add two feet to the distance of the start/stop lines, and 176 is the magic number, but 44' is the MINIMUM. This rule cannot be argued.
CS: 15'start-144'cones-15'finish + 2 feet; eliminate the 3' end boxes for this.
-Official WR times will be conducted using either the 88' or 44' Trap and 6' timing strips front & rear.
-HERE is the OFFICIAL formula, _ for those of you who want it:
MPH = (3.0 X # of ft. in Trap)/(4.4 X Time in Sec.)
So if you run the 176' CS+2' course in 2.750 seconds:
MPH = 3.0 x 176/4.4 X 3.750 = 528/16.5 = 32.00 MPH
If you run the official 44' course (at Breck) in .875 seconds:
MPH = 3x44 / 4.4x.875 = 132/5.0285714 = 26.25 MPH
Go fast, critters. -=S=-
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Flatland Speed
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On 7/31/2004
Steve in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
Kenny shaves his head?
OK! I really like all of the ideas presented here. Even if they're not held at one of the "big" races, we can do all sorts of races & contests at GRS venues. Oval, Fig-8 (with full pads), 1, 2, & multiple-mile races.
Tick-tacks (or as we knew them in AZ in the 70's, 'click-clacks') are tougher to do with no kicktail, Tom...and most of today's speed-related skateboards don't come with kicks.
I'll let others establish the parameters for different pump or push races. It may well depend soley on the venue and the available riding terrain. At the Gathering, the Cardinal picnic area was PERFECT for the hill climb. At G4, about 12 riders started 'en-masse' down one side of the loop. Once your feet were both on top of the board, there they had to stay (no pushing) until you're momentum was completely stopped, and there you had to stay, pulling over to the side but keeping your position (honor system in effect). Claude R. won the event, and I can't remember who came in second. I thought I was in third with Geezer-X stopped no more than 6" behind me!
For "THE TRAP", at least for now, will remain simple;
DO IT ANYWAY YOU CAN. Seriously!
You can push through The Trap if you want.
You can skog up to 20' prior to The Trap, coast, and then pump The Trap.
You can push to 15mph, pump to ~xx.xmph, and tuck through The Trap.
It don't matter.
Like I said, part of the fun of this is to hear about how Mike D. ran 3.5 MPH faster than me, and that he used 3 pushes vs. 2 pushes, and yadda-yadda.
Other comments on The Trap:
-CC is dead-on correct about pumping (and pushing for that matter) having "gears". There are speeds at which you would NEVER consider trying to push unless you wanted to die;
Pushing is the "lower gear" on a skateboard.
Pumping is 2nd gear, and is a deep gear, which means that there's alot of room for acceleration.
(Now comes the fun part)
There are NO equiptment restrictions. Yes, you'll be able to pump a TS board up to 20mph, but you'll eventually hit the ceiling of speed.
Longboards, GS boards, dropped or lowered DH boards may give the rider a better top end, but the energy to get them to that speed may have been used up at the lower speeds.
More in following post. Thanks, Adam!
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chris chaput / yandall MB skogunion
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
Chris Chaput is making a drive down to san diego for an almamater gathering and will be stopping by to hand deliver some gumball 88a 78mm rollers here in Poway around midafternoon today. We might even attempt to clock some runs using his 176' timing grid down the MB boardwalk.
Hopefully some results to post tomorrow.
We are both excited over this somewhat virgin pavement territory since it brings new opportunities in a zillion potential directions.
skoggin off!
C Ya
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Which gear to use
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I think that it will be interesting to see what kind of equipment will be used in a fast, unlimited pump-fest. When you're riding a bike, it's easy to get up to speed in a low gear but as you go faster and faster, you lose the ability to pedal that fast and you have to change to a higher gear.
I'm able to pump my speedboards even though they have very slow turning trucks, big wheels and a long wheelbase. It takes a number of good strong pushes but once you get moving, it's very stable feeling - like using high gear on your bike when going down hill. I'm guessing that the fastest pumpers will overcome the sluggish start of a longer wheelbase and larger wheel and enjoy the stability of the "high gear" that kicks in about 15mph. Lastly, aerodynamics will play a big role in top end speed because our upright pumping stance becomes a parachute if we don't lose the baggy clothes and protective gear. That's why Mollica and I shave the tops of our heads...
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Average Joe
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On 7/31/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
As I recall, Dan is the only one who has suggested starting from a dead stop. This was only a suggestion and I it would be a good idea if we were merely demontration "pumping prowess". If we're going for speed, let's not limit our ability to get up to speed unnecessarily. Perhaps a long enough "no push zone" that immediately precedes the speed trap would cool the jets of anyone trying to maintain a fast push instead of a fast pump. Anything "reasonable" is fine with me. Counting pushes is tedious. This shouldn't be heavily contested aspect of the discipline. Everyone can see whether or not we're pushing or pumping.
To tell you the truth, I have no idea on whether or not I can push as fast as I can pump. Most of my fastest push/sprints are at the top of an already fast hill. Hmmm.
It will little more than a second to travel 44 feet which is not that easy to time for most people. Most of us are familiar with the 174 foot CyberSlalom course length. We are able to easily maintain a "sprint" over that length of time. I suggest that guys who have only a stopwatch and a calculator set a "trap" that is 176 feet in length. Time yourself by running the course with your stopwatch. Take 120 and divide it by the number of seconds that it took you to run the course. The result is your speed in miles per hour. mph = 120 / secs.
Here's a chart that shows the number of seconds it takes to go 176 feet and the corresponding speed in MPH.
4.0 = 30.00
4.1 = 29.27
4.2 = 28.57
4.3 = 27.91
4.4 = 27.27
4.5 = 26.67
4.6 = 26.09
4.7 = 25.53
4.8 = 25.00
4.9 = 24.49
5.0 = 24.00
5.1 = 23.53
5.2 = 23.08
5.3 = 22.64
5.4 = 22.22
5.5 = 21.82
5.6 = 21.43
5.7 = 21.05
5.8 = 20.69
5.9 = 20.34
6.0 = 20.00
6.1 = 19.67
6.2 = 19.35
6.3 = 19.05
6.4 = 18.75
6.5 = 18.46
6.6 = 18.18
6.7 = 17.91
6.8 = 17.65
6.9 = 17.39
7.0 = 17.14
7.1 = 16.90
7.2 = 16.67
7.3 = 16.44
7.4 = 16.22
7.5 = 16.00
7.6 = 15.79
7.7 = 15.58
7.8 = 15.38
7.9 = 15.19
8.0 = 15.00
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PUSH OR DEAD STOP FOR PURE PUMP RACES
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On 7/31/2004 tom
wrote in from
United States
(68.234.nnn.nnn)
I agree with both Chris and Gessmer.
If you werer going to have a separate race for just pumping aside from a skogging/push race then here is an idea.
From a dead stop, you are truly testing ONLY your pumping ability.
Since a separate pumping challenge would be all about pumping ability what about this:
No pushing, no ramp, no dead stop.
Four tick tacks and start pumping. OK, kit kat whatever. Or like Steve suggests you could "tick tack" (instead of push) like a maniac up to speed prior to the time trap?
That's a basic pumping related propulsion method and you can't cheat on that either. I kind of like this because it's a skateboard race based on propulsion where your feet never touch the ground. It would eliminate the lack of excitement and drama/entertainment value from watching a painfully slow dead stop beginning, and also eliminate the advantage of a super strong pusher who can just blast off.
Also what about a pumping relay race? Feet can never touch the ground.
Is that really lame?
Just a suggestion.
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Flat Land Racing
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On 7/31/2004
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(24.62.nnn.nnn)
ok this is cool!
Slalom has the FCR, for flat land racing
it could be the FLR series.
I think you should have seperate events for pushing
and pumping and an unlimited event where you can pump or
push.
I would like to see a longer push race, too.
Maybe a mile or two or longer.
This course could also be used for an unlimited
race where you push or pump.
Time traps are good, but I would like to see
a traditional race with everyone skating at once
for the longer events. Adds more drama and excitement.
This type of racing will help to grow the sport of skateboard
racing. This is because it is hard to get into downhill or
slalom racing (for a beginer). This will allow anybody
with a skateboard to give racing a shot, even if their
skills are not that advanced.
Of course timed events allow people from all over to
compare times on the forums, kind of like cyber slalom.
So that's cool, too.
I wonder what the record for a 1 mile flat land race,
unlimited push or pump, would be?
What about a 2 mile race?
There have been some interesting longer push races listed on
the contest calendar. Like the Portland Pusher and the NYC
Central Park race, both of which are 7 mile push (or pump)
races. I would like to see some shorter push races of the
same type. I think it would be ok to have some mild hills
on a longer course, too. Since it would be hard to find
a completely flat longer course.
It would be cool to see skateboard manufacturers produce
specialized equipment for these racing diciplines.
And of course, the same equipment would be really
good for fast cruising, also.
Just my .03 cents
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Pumping speed trap; Estimated best speed
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On 7/31/2004
Pat Chewning
wrote in from
United States
(24.21.nnn.nnn)
The Chronocone 2004 timing system has a built-in speed trap where the distance is entered and the time across the speed trap gives the speed.
The speed trap distance can be measured in meters and the speed given in KPH OR
the speed trap distance can be measured in feet and the speed given in MPH
As has already been mentioned, the conversion factor is 60MPH = 88 feet per second (one of those conversions that are memorized in engineering school).
The conversion for KPH (Kilometers per hour) to meters per second (mps) is:
1m/s = 3.6 KPH [ because 3600 s/H ; 1000m / Km ]
The best cyberslalom time is 8 seconds, which is 22 feet per second (15MPH) average over the 174 foot course. I'd estimate the the finishing speed is closer to 35fps , or about 24MPH.
So my guess is that we will see speeds around 25MPH for the fastest pumpers.
-- Pat
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THREAD PUMPIN
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On 7/30/2004
Chris Yandall
wrote in from
United States
(68.101.nnn.nnn)
Wow. Some good meat and potatos in getting details worked out. 44' in one sec for 30mph is mindboggling on the flats. I'm thinking my 34" x 9.25 for my big size 13 feet works best for both skoggin and pumpin. Heavy boards and superwide trucks don't work for me. Chaput's big green wheels so far are pretty sweet for recreational skoggin and pumpin and I'm sure the guys that are totally into shaving millesecs off of elapsed time will come up with freespining axel designs and the likes with trucks that crank a clean 45'ish degree arc etc ...
I agree the two disciplines are worlds apart but imagine creating a race where both of them are required around an oval in alternating laps or whatever permeation we all dream up. It will be interesting to see what the industry standard deck for both skogging and pumpin will evolve into. We just need some good contests to come together and determine what shreds the best on the flats. It might be refreshing for the downhillers to take a serious look at flatland skating techniques. Overall it will most likely increase the growing numbers of skaters that would rather try this venue of skateboarding in place of the ollie freaks and flair air trends and for veteran skaters another reason to skateboard.
I'd like to get video of other people skoggin and pumpin on my sites. Please email mpgs. movs, etc about the same movie dimensions(width/height) you checked me out stroking the pavement.
I'm diggin the energy and really want to get on the boardwalk with fellow pumpers and skoggers.
Email me and let me know if you want to hook up.
PUMP YOUR DECK BABY !!!!!
C YA
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Online The Trap Ranking
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On 7/30/2004
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(66.121.nnn.nnn)
Steve in AZ, The online ranking page you wanted for The Trap is ready. Let me know when you finalize the rules and I'll replace the temporary ones I cobbled together.
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Campaign funds
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On 7/30/2004
Candidate in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
Ur...uh, hi.
Will you support me in this election year by providing me with a simple timing system? Dual 6' tape start/stop with a reset button, 50' of wire.
Anyone? How 'bout after the slalom season?
I've already got wheels comin'.
-=S=-
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I accept the nomination
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On 7/30/2004
President of Speed...in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(130.13.nnn.nnn)
You got it, Chris. Maximum Velocity. Period.
I did the calcs. at work on paper; they were simple enough. I wanted to make sure that it was easy enough to convert a raw time into MPH easily, and I think 44' is perfect.
Approach: Straight-line. Not many venues have what it takes here, but I can't see an oval or figure-8 doing anything but slowing down the effort.
Min/Max Start distance: How about NO MINIMUM and NO MAXIMUM? Too little or too long of a start distance would both only slow the rider at the trap. I say let the skaters decide and keep this simple. That said, I'm sure that after folks begin to record their fastest times, we'll start to see a standardization of starting distances. Hehe...even on Bonneville, no one cares how long or how short of a distance it took for you to get up to speed.
I'm content with leaving things as they are for now. The more rules you impose, the more those rules can be mis-interpreted. How long did it take to finally get that "One foot on the ground in the starting box with the clock starting as your front wheels pass the start line" for C.S.??
I'm hoping that my fellow speed-pusher-and-pumper-freaks across this country...nea, the WORLD...will accept the challenge and begin to run "The Trap". Get back to this forum with your preferred start distance findings and anything else you have to offer.
Thanks to CC, Dan G., Chris Y., and that "exited as a puppy" Eric "silversurfer" for getting me started with this.
Now go skate.
-=S=-
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I like where his is going...
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On 7/30/2004
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
This is an election year. I nominate Steve from AZ to write the rulebook. He's only a few commitments away. 44 feet evenly divides 5280 feet into 120, which is evenly divisible by 60. That's a pretty good distance. Long enough for accurate timing, short enough so as not to tire one out. The approach should have a generous minimum distance so as not to require quick acceleration. The real test as I understand it, is maximum speed.
Longer distance should be covered in a straight line or on a figure 8, as an oval or loop would tend to favor regular or goofy footers.
I was looking at a little chart that I did in Excel:
44' in 1 second = 30mph
44' in 2 seconds = 15mph
44' in 3 seconds = 10mph
44' in 4 seconds = 7.5mph
mph = 30 / secs
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How to Pump