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| Q&A: Going Downhill with David Rogers (858 Posts)
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tucks etc
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On 6/15/2005
david
wrote in from
United States
(69.3.nnn.nnn)
civilian2b , it sounds like you are decribing the "hut tuck" which was invented by john hudson.
as for rail grabbin/ puttin a hand down, while i love to get very low and grab rail when going through tight turns fast, i would definetly enter a race where the rules are no grabbin no hands down. i know leemo has been talking about putting on a event like this for a while...is it happening..
from a safety standpoint, it hurts much less to fall off your board when super-low and grabbin rail. i've seen some video of some of the old-school downhillers like leemo and mallard take some super hard falls trying to ride corners @ speed standing up. i have much respect for it, but i believe there is a point where a corner will get to tight or the speeds to fast where you cannot ride the corner standing up. i look forward to somebody proving me wrong though.
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quick riding stance question (no, really)
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On 6/15/2005
civilian2b
wrote in from
United States
(140.185.nnn.nnn)
-i just had a quick question on downhill riding stances.
i'm just starting out and of the few hills that i've hit, i've kept my knees good and flexed, but i was thinking of getting down real low in, i think it's called the tuck knee stance? where the rear leg is bent so the knee is almost touching the board, and the front leg is bent at about a 90 degree angle.
i've gotten in this stance a few times on gentle slopes and it while it feels like a solid stance, i feel for some reason, as if i'm VERY light on my board all of a sudden, almost like i'm not even touching it, it's a very surreal feeling, anyways, of the slopes i've done this on, it's been a slow meandering speed, and i'd like to get into this stance on a real hill and bring it up to speed, but i'm just now sure how stable and safe it would be at hill-speed
could someone square me away
thanks
-justin
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re: technical racing techniques
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On 6/15/2005
David Rogers
wrote in from
United States
(66.14.nnn.nnn)
I think panda has it right.
Using slide gloves and taking sharp turns with a hand on the pavement is fairly "normal" worldwide. I also credit Manu as being the first rider I saw using this "sliding" style. The "no board grab, no hand down" racers are a minority now.
Riding styles continue to progress..JimZ's "hand down, no-board grab" sliding toe side turns come to mind. Many riders in Brazil ride/turn with one knee on the board, hand down with board grab...I hear they can brake very effectively with the front foot while the rear foot and knee remain on the board...wow!
There are no typical US or European style racecourses, there is no typical average speed. No matter where you race you can encounter "technical" sections of the racetrack where a "hand down/sliding" technique can be useful. A "technical turn" usually means that the turn can't be made at speed in a tuck...braking and/or sliding is required. Learning a few different turning/riding/braking techniques will prepare you for just about any racecourse in the world.
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re: technical racing techniques
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On 6/15/2005
panda
wrote in from
France
(82.225.nnn.nnn)
hi there brad.
I really think there's a bit of fantasy associated with the whole
USA = fast straight courses
Europe = slow technical courses
It seems this held true a few years ago, in the 'pre grab rail' era when people in the US ran courses with no hands down and thus could not really take hard turns at speed.
Meanwhile in europe people where riding on mountain roads where the roads are usually not as wide as in the US and hairpin turns are quite common, in france notably where dragging the foot was thought of as a heresy and sliding turns as well as pendulum stopping was the norm.
Manu came to the US races and introduced this style of riding, then came the worldwide acceptance of the internet and from what we can see in the videos everywhere it seems as though the styles from everywhere have levelled up.
There's a bunch of freerides and races in europe and their technical requirements are all variable.
The Are sweden course looks a lot more like a drafting course than a technical course for instance.
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technical racing techniques
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On 6/15/2005
brad
wrote in from
United States
(155.229.nnn.nnn)
Reading some older posts on the speedboard forum, I saw a number of posts alluding to the technical nature of the European race courses, which involved negotiating tricky turns and running on poor terrain.
I wonder if you or anyone can provide some insight into the techniques used for these kinds of courses.
There was also mention in these posts implying speeds on technical courses are slower than on American style race courses.
I wonder what are the average running speeds for the European style technical race courses.
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bombin
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On 6/12/2005 scrub
wrote in from
United States
(69.107.nnn.nnn)
You do have to stay on edge, but you can bomb by making long mellow lines you just need a little more width than a sidewalk or so. Personally I've been up to the mid 40's. One cool thing is no wobbles and you can make carves and slides at that speed without trouble.
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Freeboards
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On 6/12/2005 Mike P
wrote in from
United States
(69.107.nnn.nnn)
I saw guys skate claremont a while ago on those boards and was stoked. It seems like u would go through wheels REALLY fast though. Is that true? Also, can u ever just point it and bomb? Or do u have to stay on edge?
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thanks and more
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On 6/10/2005
scrub
wrote in from
United States
(69.107.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for the comments everyone, glad you enjoyed the video. On normal grades, you are not neccesarily stuck in a constant state of drift and recovery. It definately looks like that on this hill though because I had to check so much speed. As you lean in (with the bindings we use) you can apply more weight to the non-casters and do carving without sliding, alot like snowboard carving. Problem is even with full edge pressure, we only have 2 wheels worth of grip so the traction is half that of a longboard. So it has its pros and cons but I don't think I would ever make it down that hill on a longboard, I'd be doing 40 coming out of the first turn!
I would really like to try the extra wide and grippy longboard wheels for taking freebording to new levels. For now I'm stuck with kryptos.
Check out some more videos on the thumbnails you see under my post:
http://www.freebord.com/snitz/topic.asp?TOPIC_ID=1599
The one in the middle has another very technical bay area hill in Sunol.
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Video & herbn's grippins
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On 6/10/2005
David Rogers
wrote in from
United States
(66.14.nnn.nnn)
Scrub..that looks pretty nuts! Nice camera work!! Chaput's "block of ice" analogy certainly rings true for me. Wearing a helmet & slide gloves might be a good move...and watch out for those cars!!
herbn...depending on the quality of the surface, the temperature, etc; you might give some of the harder duro's a try. Duro's in the 80's are common in slalom where hard carving and maximum grip are pushed to the limit.
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oh yeah!
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On 6/10/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(64.12.nnn.nnn)
those things(freebords) i forgot about those ,for a minute,i thought that guy was rolling on a regular board. Now i'm not nearly as impressed,still cool video though.
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Freebord on Martino
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On 6/10/2005
Flavien
wrote in from
United States
(69.109.nnn.nnn)
Hell yeah that's a freebord !!!
I ride with these guys and they rock on it...
The only thing when you ride with them on a speedboard is that they like it steep... San Francisco-bay-area steep :D
No place for hills under 10%...
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Cool Video
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On 6/8/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Nice work. What is the name of the board? Is that the Freebord with the casters for pitching slides that was marketed as a crosstrainer for snowboarding?
it looks cool, as if you're in a perpetual state of drift and recovery. A bit scary for me though. Taking a hairpin on a block of ice tends to "curb" my enthusiasm if you know what I mean.
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Martino Street
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On 6/8/2005
Scrub
wrote in from
United States
(157.95.nnn.nnn)
Here's a video of the gnarliest hill I've ever tried. The steepness doesnt come though but this is 20-25% grade with hairpin turns, enjoy:
http://www.wiredout46.com/files/userfiles/scrub/martino_0001.wmv
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Herbn's wheels
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On 6/8/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
I'd have to agree with you. For high traction carving to intentionally scrub off speed on a steep hill, the Grippins are the way to go. In the really soft duros, the aggressive vertical profile coming away from the bearing seats allows the wheel to deform quite a bit in a hard turn. As a result it keeps a LOT of urethane flat on the ground when carving. The Grippins have the widest contact patch of all the wheels, and at 70mm, it's not going to be quite as fast as the Gumballs, Strikers or Flywheels.
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speed suit + draft advice
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On 6/7/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
John, thanks for the info on speed suits! you're right, not only the wiggling that generates heat but i'd be a poached egg if the sun's out at all that day. Now, spandex results in automatic DQ on race day ;-) but those lightweight breatheable Nike sport-o shirts will probably come in handy... After experimenting over the last weeks, i'm almost sure drafting benefit will also be insignificant since 1. the speed seems insufficient and 2. the motion of pumping a board back and forth doesn't create a consistent pocket of air. I had a good time drafting behind a biker yesterday tho!!
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yeah ain't it cool?
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On 6/3/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
Which wheels from abec 11 are the SLOWEST down a hill. I don't mean coasting, i mean carving,which wheels have the grip to cut the most speed out of a steep narrow hill,on loosy loose trucks. MY money is on the 75a grippins, i was craving those last night on my scary hill.
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downhillers
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On 6/3/2005 sk82rel8
wrote in from
United States
(207.111.nnn.nnn)
yous guys is nuts
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Big Wheels
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On 6/1/2005
John
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
We occasionally roll on 20’s around the hood, but David and I have never ridden any wheels larger than 83mm for a speedboarding competition. We both like the smaller cored wheels for their grip characteristics, and we seem to be fairly fast on our 76mm wheels. We have done limited runs with 83 vs 76, and found no significant difference on our practice road. This was by no means a controlled scientific test. Our only recorded solo speed was 50.2 mph(~81 kmh)on this road, and this may not be fast enough to determine any perceptible speed difference between these wheels.
I think that riders choose wheels depending on their local terrain, their style of riding and the type of board that they ride. Some off-set boards need larger diameter wheels to give good clearance under the board rails, and some heavier riders prefer the roundness that a larger cored wheel will maintain under their weight. Another important feature for many riders is the slide characteristics of a wheel. I have heard some riders claim the larger cored wheels slide more consistently than the more flexible lipped, small core wheels.
I would suggest riding boards with different wheel set-ups and see what you think for yourself. I know this can be costly unless you have friends with different equipment that you can use for comparison. Good luck with the perfect wheel hunt!
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duct tape slowing you down?
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On 5/31/2005 herbn
wrote in from
United States
(152.163.nnn.nnn)
maybe if it's around your wheels, resonably smooth patches shouldn't do anything major. You left out body stance/position, that perfect hut tuck, butt high ,arms wrapping straight back,back flat to the road(that's the big one)cutting the air with the tops of your shoulders not your chest. My very limited experience has tlead me to this rule of thumb," the more uncomfortable you are, the more the back of your legs burn(stretch baby stretch) the more aerodynamic your tuck probabely is. The person that can hold that tuck,stretched to perfection, the longest and most consistant through corners,or at least return to that "position" the quickest after a turn should be the fastest.All the other factors taken to their extreme can add to to a victory for a inferior tuck but i think the tuck is the main thing.
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big wheels
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On 5/26/2005 L
wrote in from
Sweden
(213.65.nnn.nnn)
This may be a topic for the wheels section, but I know you guys have been doing some testing.
I've been wondering a bit about wheel size for speedboarding lately. There's been a lot of talk about getting really big wheels (90mm+) for speedboarding, but I'm beginning to wonder if they aren't too big. I mean, theoretically they have a higher top speed than smaller wheels, but can that top speed be acheived when air resistance, acceleration at the start of a race, acceleration out of turns/hairpins, etc. come into play?
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Drafting.
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On 5/25/2005
Jimmy.
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
John and Dave, your responses to the posts are to the TEE, drafting when skateboarding sometimes is a little more varietal than scientific tests about drafting because of the unknown element of MOTHER NATURE, keep givin them positive feedback regardless of their views because I know you both know more about drafting than me.
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speed suit
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On 5/24/2005
John
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
Peters,
At speeds of 12-18mph, a speed suit would be very insignificant. Sure the drag force increases in proportion to the square of the velocity, but you are only going 15 mph average. The magnitude of the drag force is not that large at these speeds. When speeds approach 50mph, the drag force becomes something to worry about.
Since you will be pushing and pumping, I think that the body heat generated by this activity would make this idea unbearable. Have you ever seen bike riders riding with a non-porous material? Tight fitting clothing or a Speedo is probably more realistic for what you are doing. I don't know what the minimum speed is for drafting, but I can guess that you would need to push or pump again before you noticed any real gain.
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aero wall
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On 5/24/2005
John
wrote in from
United States
(207.200.nnn.nnn)
Roger,
At the Dump Road the "rabbit" is caught nearly everytime by riders with similar tucks and equipment. The lead rider can easily be reeled in from a distance of 50ft. or more if the trailing riders have similar aero characteristics as the lead rider.
I think what you are describing is a problem with being aerodynamicly inferior to your competitor. I rarely have a problem passing someone that I am drafting unless I produce more drag than that rider does. If you draft up on a rider and then you can not make the pass it is because you are slower than that rider in general. The only reason you have gained on him is because of the draft. If you get out of the draft and he runs away from you, then it should be even more apparent that you are slower than him. If this is the case, then the best you can hope for is a pass right before the finish.
I find it helpful to have an idea of how I stack up against my competition aerodynamicly in order to use the draft effectively and race wisely.
Things like the # of holes in your leathers and the amount of duct tape used to hold them together can make a huge difference! I would imagine that two riders of similar build, similar skills and similar equipment, should be able to draft and pass each other at will.
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barrett wheels
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On 5/24/2005
Flavien
wrote in from
United States
(69.109.nnn.nnn)
Thank you for all that...
I've sent an email to kripto to know more about these red kriptos
See you in Sweden :)
Flavien
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Barrett Wheels
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On 5/24/2005
David Rogers
wrote in from
United States
(66.14.nnn.nnn)
Sorry we missed getting back to you right away. Sorry to hear about your board getting "lost"...bummer. Must agree with what Roger is telling you about Barrett. I have no experience with Avilas, but I do have some experience crashing at Barrett. The hardest part about that road as a skateboard rider, is keeping your board under your feet. Cracks, ruts, potholes, tractor damage etc. make the road very "interesting".
You want a wheel you feel very comfortable with on rough/damaged roads. For skateboard, my favorite wheel is the Gumball...for luge 83 Flywheel...both in the 75a flavor. Kryptos, Gumballs, Flywheels have all taken the win on that track...It's your choice.
Roger mentioned 85mm RED Kryptos...I've never seen those for sale, but that would probably be a good choice over the harder 85mm BLUE ones.
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