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| Buttboarding (778 Posts)
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Buttboarding Info |
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On 4/24/2003 PSR
wrote in from
(216.114.nnn.nnn)
Sean,we'll see in June,up in New Hampsha. I think my 'extra padding' on top will have to go,but I don't see any real issues with my truck placement,as I didn't 'drop thru' to get the lower GC. I need Leathers (That Fit,that is) before I step up and 'go racing'. It's still too early here to go romp much(snowed yesterday),and there's still gravel/salt on most roadways from the winter.Bad for eyes,bearings,wheels,braking,and sudden turns.You can get RoadRash and Salt in the wound all at once if you're too exuberant too early in the Season up here.But I should be ready for the White Mountains by late May,and I'll let ya'll know how it runs then.
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On 4/24/2003
sean c
wrote in from
(158.136.nnn.nnn)
so did it ever pass tech anywhere?
sean c
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On 4/24/2003 PSR
wrote in from
(216.114.nnn.nnn)
Here's an older post I've pasted back up.This isn't a "typical" buttboard Racer,but is a really easy-to-do setup that hauls cookies.Using a deck(the Freeboard 112cm) that's already out there on the market,that has turned-up tip/tail,with a decent concave,gave me the ability to run my front truck nearly at the same height as the top of the deck.The rear truck is mounted just where the 'tail' curvature strats,so it's under the board bottom,but maybe only by 3/8".The ride height is now 4-1/8" with 70mm Payasos and Indy's on it.The wheelbase is 38-1/2",length of the deck is 44",width is 10-1/2".The truck here is using a Lot of negative wedge up front,as to counter the slant of the kicknose,so three Cellblock-wedges are used,plus thin risers.The effect then is my axle is only 2-1/4' below my deck,but has 3-3/4" of clearance for turning,and it's well ahead of my hips,which promotes stability (especially while braking!)while keeping the wheels away from my handgrips. On 9/23/2002 PSR wrote in from 216.114.xxx.xxx:
Hey,Joseph,I saw your post over in 'homemades'(btw,HC posted a reply on the 'Luge' page,not here,but he didn't ignore ya)and a few of my posts back (like a month ago) I mention that my board is legally questionable,but runs a long wheelbase.Well,the reason it runs a long spread between axles is that was a Freeboard,and I mounted my front truck on the nose-kick,and put my rear on at the bend at the tail's base.This gives me some unique advantages.I'm laying in a feet-down position (by about 2-3 degrees) so my head/shoulders are a bit higher for better vivbility. The front kick provides a nice under-thigh lift when padded(we'll see if that passes Tech Insp.!)and the rear tail helps as a headrest. Best by far is that the front truck's pivot sit tucked up,probably just above the deck's height,so my center of mass isn't very far above it,which gives excellent stability. I had to severly de-wedge the front (16*,an 11 deg. + 5 deg. wedge,fat-end-forward) to keep the front truck from being too turny.The rear truck is also negatively wedged a tad (like 4* or so)to promote traction and stability.
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On 4/24/2003
sean c
wrote in from
(158.136.nnn.nnn)
i'm a buttboarder active on this board too.
EK my feelings towards the usaluge and igsa think are split. people need to realize it's a hype thing to help with sponsorship not neccesarily a thing to get people into the olympics. but i do agree people need to start acting more professional.
Civ, i run indy 215's and abec 11 flashbacks (75a in front, 72a in rear). but most people run R-IIB trucks on buttboards. i'm just poor. i built my luge with leftover wood and leftover trucks. i figured it would be something fun to improve my skill on my luge. it's definitely worked, and in fact i now prefer the way my buttboard handles over my luge. at first i hated the responsiveness of a buttboard cuz i was all over the place on that board and twitchy as hell. now i really love the feel of it.
sean c
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On 4/24/2003
civ
wrote in from
(24.141.nnn.nnn)
yes, there are people active on here....im now one of them. Went for my first day of the season on my b-board last night. I finally got a full face helmet and several layers of denim and now im ready to rip. I got up to 70kph, my top speed so far on the buttboard, turns out to be my stand up top as well. But thanks to the pads I know some crazy s#@!e that i can tackle now. Wht kind of truck/wheel set ups are you guys running?
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On 4/23/2003
EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
Hey!!!! Am I the only "buttboarder" active on the site!!!???
Good news you street "sliders". If have been keep up with the postings, USALUGE and IGSA has combined forces to actively help each other in promoting luging, in both street and ice. It's been announced that there will be a "cross-over" program to recurit and train both street and ice "sliders" (see www.gravity-sports.com). This is exciting for us as buttboarders cause this disiplint also "crosses-over" into both the street and ice disiplint. These exciting changes are coming and the bar is being raised. It's time to think about being more "professional", not in money but in attitude and example. I figured that our sport's future will come to either "outlaw" or "inlaw"... thanks to Marcus of the IGSA that it's inlaw with legit people.
EK
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On 4/10/2003
EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
Hey you buttboarders out there!!!!!
I hope that you have circled this May 2nd to 4th on your calendar 'cause the San Francisco Gravity Festival is on!!!
I won't be racing but I will be there to video tape all you gravity junkies. Plan on coming to one of this year's big events. Check in on www.gravity-sports.com for more info. I will be visiting the corner where I crashed and make peace with the "corner demons" (LOL).... it's an islander thing (LOL).
Anyways make your trak to San Fran this May. Don't miss out!
EK "Da cane carrying kimp" #1 stock wheel chair
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On 4/9/2003
EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
PSR... I agree with you big time! It bothers me that my son does it with his hands. I tell him that everytime he runs down a hill but like I said, "Us old farts don't know jack", according to these young guns. Even braking with the toes of my shoes is better at least compared to the use of the palms of his hands. I can get "torque" and leverage out of my technqic, by spreading out my legs, while controlling the board with my hands. I'll try to convince him next time we go training at the hill. I appreciate the input.
EK
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On 4/9/2003 PSR
wrote in from
(216.114.nnn.nnn)
Oops,I left out a snippett in line 11,in reference to braking surface area; I am talking about the contact patch of early 50's race car tires in comparison with a trusty ol' pair of Vans,men's size 10 or so.Two shoes are pretty comparable to four skinny bias-ply tires.The braking mechanisms,of course,are somewhat different in sheer strength,but then again,so are the masses,and uphill speeds.On a few downhills around here,I would say I could give an Allard a decent run for it's money in overall top-to-bottom speed,and can outbrake the car while my shoes last...
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On 4/8/2003 PSR
wrote in from
(216.114.nnn.nnn)
EK,please consider the biomechanics of how you slow down,and how your son is currently applying braking.Rotator cuffs,collarbones,and elbow caps are costly to repair,not to say that knee cartiledge isn't... The forces generated in Buttboarding/Luging are more than enough to cause injury to body parts that can't stand the stresses of moving faster than our feet naturally carry us.This is why falling out of a tree hurts us more than it does a chimp-Evolution has sorted us away from the probabilty of falling out of a tree,arm down,yet we can land from a two-story fall on our feet,often unhurt.In terms of muscle mass,and in terms of muscle strength,we're better able to use our legs to deal with the forces involved in decelerating a luge/buttboard than if the arms are used.As for contact patch,any increase in surface area of the 'brake pads' is in our favor,but,again,connective tissue strength/resilience has to be considered.Our shoes have roughly the same contact patch as a Race Car from the pre-war era,so our sleds/bodies combined are far lighter than those vehichles.Heat generated while braking is something to consider,but is usually tolerable.So it comes down to muscle and connective tissue strengths that set the limits of our ability to brake effectively.Feet first,feet down,feet flat,is the best way I've seen without a mechanical assist in braking.Hands should be used only to aid stability in times of crisis.Trust me here;I've got 26 years of shooting hills laying down to prove what I'm saying.The feet are your brakes,not the hands...
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On 4/8/2003
sean c
wrote in from
(158.136.nnn.nnn)
i'm not entirely convinced grooved wheels make any difference in the rain. in my personal opinion it's all hype. no matter what you do, you're still going to slide around barely in control with minimal braking.
ernie, i have seeen diagonal cuts in wheels from the center. that person chose flashbacks over his carved up wheels.
but i'd much rather ride my buttboard in the rain then my luge. buttboards slide way less.
sean c
this is all my opinion and what works/does not work for me.
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On 4/8/2003
ernie
wrote in from
(66.27.nnn.nnn)
Mario,
I think that the reason that the groves in the wheels help in wet conditions is the same reason that tread works in race car tires. The grooves are there to channel the water away from the contact patch. when the wheel goes over water it tries to push the water sway from the wheel to the sides but if the wheel is too wide or there is too much water the wheel pushes the water straight down (or actually the wheel goes up onto the water only with no contact with the road) and you lose traction. the grooves give the water a closer place to go than the edges of the wheel. but can only displace as much water as the grooves can hold. I wonder if anyone has tried groves that go diagonaly from the center out. this way the grooves channel the water towards the outside edges of the wheels. This may be too hard to do on small urethane wheels. Anyways this is a great forum. I have never tried this place until I tried sitting on my board. It must be my technique or something cause I can go alot faster standing up than sitting down.
-Ernie
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On 4/4/2003 hc
wrote in from
(67.122.nnn.nnn)
(scaled down)
http://www.geocities.com/sk8sanjose/drag_chart_sml.jpg
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On 4/1/2003
EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
Howzit hc!
Well I know that going fast head first is crazy (I think this everytime I see my son do it... but I have done it too). But taking all precautions that, as you the rider can control, it's a rush. I know the guys who skeleton on the ice have alot more "safety factors" than street skeleton. With a closed course, banked turns, and "up-hill" run-off, they can push for speeds in excess of 70+mph without worrying about cars, turns, gravel, etc like we do as street runners.
The "braking system" that my son uses is "hand-braking" or simply putting his hands flat on the speeding pavement. Yea... I know. Sounds scary but he has, in his own way, perfected this style of slowing down. Now my technqic is to drag my toes (the toes of my shoes are reinforced with tire rubber like the bottoms of my buttboarding shoes). The more pressure I apply on the road with my toes (same technqic of ice skeleton pilots...) the more the braking. But with my son it's the dragging of his hands that helps with braking. He applies equal pressure of both hands on the road... the palms of his gloves have been reinforced with the same tire rubber as my shoes. It works for him but I don't like the idea of removing of his hands from the board. I guess his weight plus leathers to the padding of the board "holds" him to the whole set-up. That's is why I have him "train" at low speeds to see if any complications with this style comes up. But you know young guns... us old farts don't know nothing about safety...
Fortunate enough the hill, that we practice on, has a run-off that goes up hill and braking is not that tough.
Hey... checked out that chart and it's got some interesting stuff on it. I am going to print it out as soon as I get some ink for my printer. Appreciate you my brother.
EK
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On 3/31/2003
hc
wrote in from
(67.122.nnn.nnn)
got around to scanning this,
source: 2nd IHPVA symposium, doug malewicky sp?
http://www.geocities.com/sk8sanjose/drag_chart.jpg
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On 3/31/2003 hc
wrote in from
(67.122.nnn.nnn)
ek, how does your son stop? (i think i asked this before..)
a local skater have that brakeboard device, but he hasn't converted to hand brake lever yet.
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On 3/29/2003
EK
wrote in from
(198.81.nnn.nnn)
Hey! What's happeing out there! I see my post is the last one STILL up.
Well this weekend I got to help (not ride... crap) my son do some boarding. He is into the 'skeleton style' speedboarding. Actually we have been doing this for a couple of years and, while winter was here, we worked on his board. It's like a buttboard but designed for head-first position, kept simple. The board was orginally set-up with Randall 180s and Bareback 70mms. It amazed me that with this set-up my son was clocked at 63 mph! (Of course with full protective gear, leathers, full-face helmet, kevlar gloves.) So this weekend we replaced this set-up with z-roller trucks, ABEC 11 83mm's, and ABEC 7 bearings. Our luck, the weather was clear and warm and "da hill" was clean, no snow!
So we went to "da hill", which is located between Heber City and Park City (Utah), to shake out the bugs in the board. "Da hill" has a grade of almost 11% and is a half a mile long. Pretty straight and basic, two lane frontage road. No other roads coming into it. It's a "60 plus mph" hill (I've gone 58 mph on my stock gravtiy bike) and good for testing. Well after a two hour session, it was not like I thought it would go with the new set-up. Smooth rides, averaging 50 to 55 mph. My son improved his tuck but no where close to his "clocked by cop radar" 60+mph run. I told him this is just practice and next time we'll break the 60+ mph mark.
Well that's basicly what I did this weekend in the way of boarding. Hopefully next time I get to ride "da hill".
Laters,
EK
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On 3/18/2003 EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
I agree with you Mario... espcially when your leathers get soaked. Hopefully at the next San Fran Gravity Fest the weather will be kind to us (espeically me!!!).
Hey Mario! almost forgot. I have been working on that buttboard you gave me at the last San Fran Fest and this time I have Flashbacks on them. They're 75a's. Hey... I got to get back on that horse and ride the sucker! Hopefully I'll be at the May race. You'll be sooo proud of me with what I have done to it.
EK
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On 3/18/2003 Mario
wrote in from
(148.87.nnn.nnn)
Maybe it's not the edges, maybe it's the increased pressure. I don't know. But it does seem that having a WIDER contact patch in the rain doesn't help as much as it does on say, a car. And the grooves do seem to help for some reason. I think my edge theory comes largely from looking at the way my wheels cone, which is that the inside edges get beaten up. I figure the more inside edges I've got, the better off I am. Regardless, I'd rather not race in the rain anyway, I hate getting water up the back of my neck, and it just isn't any good for my bearings.
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On 3/17/2003 EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
O.k.... I checked the IGSA rules on the "dualies" wheels configuration for buttboards. It's a NO! Quote: "must be exactly four(4) wheels only", only two per truck. Crap...(LOL).
But it's looking good on the narrower wheels concept or the "altered" wheel idea. If we can put grooves in the wheels, why not narrowing it? But I don't see the benefit in turns... going straight perhaps. Well enough this kind of high thinking for this island boy... my head's going to explode!!!
EK
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On 3/17/2003
EK
wrote in from
(204.246.nnn.nnn)
On the idea of the "altered" wheels, I think that it is o.k. as long as they are no bigger, in diameter, than 70mm.
Also I thought about using more than one wheel per sides of the axle. To clarify this idea I saw a wheel set-up by Lott and he had two wheels, together, on each end of the axle instead of the normal one. Now I need to look at the rules on that (IGSA Rules on "Buttboard" specs.). Maybe someone out there will post it as a "no-no" but I'll go see.
Laters brahs.
EK
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On 3/14/2003 Duane
wrote in from
(64.223.nnn.nnn)
that would be sipes not snipes my apologies to wesley
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On 3/14/2003 Duane
wrote in from
(64.223.nnn.nnn)
I don't think it is the edges that do the work, it is the grooves. Two effects: the surface area is reduced so the pressure is increased. That helps to push water out of the way, and the grooves give it a place to go. Many small edges is effective on ice, however, which is why snow tires have "snipes" which are the very small cuts in the surface. Wet racing tires do not have these. I agree that 78A flashbacks are mich slower. If there is one thing to do to get better wet traction, it is to make sure you don't use a brand new set. Use a broken in set with roughed up surfaces. A narrow set might also be a good choice in the rear. Are altered wheels buttboard-legal ?
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On 3/14/2003 hc
wrote in from
(67.116.nnn.nnn)
mario, i think your edge theory is way off.
i guess in order to test this, i will have to beat you down the corkscrew garage, but we will have to break a water main and flood the place! ;-)
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On 3/14/2003 Mario
wrote in from
(148.87.nnn.nnn)
EK, HC, all
I've been out of it for a while myself. I had surgery on my wrist (skateboarding accidents, not buttboarding) and it's taking time to heal. My man-sized buttboard (luge) is almost ready, I have the deck made and the wheel (92mm 72a Flywheels). I just need some suitable trucks, and I've been dragging my feet on making my own.
Regarding rain grooves: I think what gives a skateboard wheel grip on a wet surface are the EDGES of the wheels. Therefor, I don't think a smooth wheel is the answer for a wet weather wheel, as it is on a bicycle. For the SF Fest I grooved some 78a Flashbacks and tried them. They seemed to work OK, but their speed was down (the 78a are noticeably slower in any conditions), so I didn't use them in the race. And there was a dry line developing anyway (which EK managed to go wide of). I think the next time a wet weather race comes up, I'll groove a set of 72a or 75a Flashbacks and I bet they'll perform very well. I had three fairly deep grooves in my wheels. That's 8 edges to grip little pieces of road, instead of 2. I think it was Bob Ozman that had grooved red Kryptos on his luge, he also had 3 grooves.
See you at the SF Gravity Fest, hopefully before that, though. My gravity bike is lacking kneelers, other than that it's complete!
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