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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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bad link?
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On 11/22/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Sorry Al, had to make some changes, this link is ok.
Click here for link
And if i've worked it out the pics should be on here aswell, if not i give up.
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anyone making boards overhere?
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On 11/22/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Click here for link
Al,
the link will take you to my gallery latest page, ive got the new pics of the 30"/26"/24" decks but please check the others out.
pouring your own trucks, i did some work for a blacksmith a few months ago and have been wondering if it was possible, like to know how you do?
Would be great to see some pics of what your upto, keep makin them man, the way i look at it is it was cheaper, i could do it and they are all mine.
Nice one.
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Pumping odds n ends
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On 11/21/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, Airin and Peters, it's great to see riders with a real interest in advancing this side of skateboarding. Really, I think its the best! In all of your posts I can see a little of what I have been doing..generally alone..(except for my family)for the last 2 years. Right now, I am looking at a tiny, 26" deck that I made to see how kids might be able to torsion pump with it. In this way, I'm kind of like Munchh...thinking small and less weight might be advantageous. However, though you can indeed pump this small board, and actually real well, it is only really good for playing around. Even the little kids...under 60 lbs., prefer a 30+ inch board...so I have found. Also, with Peters' photo of the detachable concave pads, I have thought of that idea multiple times..but never made them. The closest I came to making them was a rig I set up to help me jump curbs. These pads are very interesting, and I plan to either buy or make a set when I have some time. Also, Like Munchh, I make all my own decks ..partly because it costs too much to import to Santo Domingo, where I am currently living. Like Airin, I have been testing pump set-ups for a while, maybe about 2 1/2 years...and continue to do so. So, for all of this, I'm glad that you all are contributing, because it can save quite a bit of energy doing everything trial and error. Little hints about the longer decks are most interesting to me, as I have stated too many times before...I really didn't think they were realistic. So soon I will have some fun playing around with these new concepts. However, with Airin...I probably won't go much over 48".
Anyway, I'm just writing to say I appreciate all to the information that is coming in, as it adds abit of clarity to some concepts I've been wondering about over the last couple of years. So too, to advance in these goals I am currently test-pouring my own trucks here, in Santo Domingo, the goal being..the bests trucks for torsion pumping for all ages and weights...especially women and little kids.
Anyway...this is what I am trying to do. We'll see what comes of it in the future...but I'm very optimistic!
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Big wheelbase, less deck.
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On 11/21/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Thanks, i like them and thats exactly why i started making them, but now i find that the more people i show and let ride them, the more i find i'm onto something?
The last few months i've been looking at using the best wheelbase on the smallest deck i can, this thinking has brought me to where i am now. I've just made a 26" deck that is pretty much the same as the 30" 'pocket pounder' we have spoken about, it gives me the same wheelbase, but without the tail, which is just extra weight, so again leaning toward what slalom deck builders have been doing for a long time, but then i spose i'm a little stuck in the past and never really got my head round long longboards.
So as soon as the weather lets me i'm gonna try placing my foot over the front truck and see what happens, i'll let you know.
Thanks for the input.
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foot placement
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On 11/20/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Wow, you build some very nice boards Munchh!
Yes for a pure pumping deck the front trucks will be mounted 4- 5 inches back from the nose to allow room for the front foot to be placed right over the front truck. And you are right, for most regular carving and cruising the front foot would be back from the front truck. But as in slalom, for long distance pumping the foot over the front truck seems to provide the most power to the pump.
As for flex the board can't be so flexy that it eats up the energy that you want to put into you pump but then again, at least for me, you don't want totally unrepsonsive wood under your feet either.
Concave has been discussed here earlier. Some like it, others perfer a flat deck. I like to have a little concave in a long distance pump/push board as I gives me something to push my front heel and the ball of my back foot against when I'm working carves or pumps.
Don't worry, I doubt there is any technique in skating that is 'flawed' as long as you are moving with the board safely. Experiment. Pumping practice provides very direct feedback: on the dead flats, either you are moving the board forward without touching a foot to the ground or you are not. As you get better you can move with more speed and start to pump up slight inclines as well. This is a great reinforcer for learning this magical method of long distance skating.
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hmmm?
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On 11/20/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
...mmmmmm?
now i'm confussed again, i always have my front foot directly behind the front truck, is the board flex not what you need, or do you do this with your back foot? My stance is always between the trucks as most of my boards have the trucks mounted as far on the nose as possible. I like my shape and dont like putting in cutouts really.
My technique may be flawed.
I'm not sure how to post pics on here, but you can see all ive made sofar in the gallery on my site Click here for link, this link takes you to the pic of the board i discribed earlier, just set up a little diffrent, but check out the others and delete '/the boards' off the end of the address and check out the site.
You've got my brain going, i've been making boards to order a little this year and so far everyones happy with what i came up with for them, so i'll think on this one could be interesting.
Is a pumping deck better with or without concave?
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drop throughs
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On 11/20/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, we'd love to see some of the boards you've made! Do post pix when you can.
As for drop throughs for pumping...I did have a Drop Carve for a while and found that it did not work well for pumping. The wheel cut outs meant that you could run nice large wheels and still be fairly low to the ground. But it also meant that when trying to stand over the front truck, the optimal place for the front foot when pumping, there was a serious danger of foot bite.
I also have a dropped deck, speedboard, which is nice for pushing over a 20 km hilly route that I often skate in the summer. So for kickin of course the lower deck is the snitz but for pumping: nada as there is no way to get over the front truck. The deck can be pumped a bit but nothing really powerful or for long.
So I have found that the perfect deck for pushing and the perfect deck for pumping are two very different boards. What I wonder now is if a hybrid that can do both with some dignity is possible?
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Airin
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On 11/20/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Cool,
makes me a little clearer,
your hybrid, i'm just varnishing a new deck for my nephew's birthday, its 33 1/2" and looks alot like a downhill racing deck, although my own shape, this is because i made him a 30" deck (one of my 1st) but the shape is all wrong, the widest part too far back from the nose and abit stiff to pump and a 36" cruiser that he has found too big, heavy and wide to pump although he rides it everywhere. I've designed it with more flex so he can pump better, but i've made it with drop through truck holes, making it easier when he is pushing knowing the distance he will cover on it and the cutout shape around the trucks means he can use his RII 180's or standard 150's with 70mm kryptos, bigger if he wanted?
Have you thought about dropthroughs, the shape of the deck is somewhat designed around this. I made one before meaning it to be a downhill speedboard, but found with redline 175's it carves better than alot of setups.
I'll send pics tomorow if you like, got to finnish it with a nice thick coat of ureathane, he's gonna love it.
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Munchh - you're doing it!
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On 11/20/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, don't let me distract you...I'm on a slightly different bent than many other people who pump skateboards over distance. LOL
I think your deck size and wheel base are actually quite in line with what others have found to be optimal for LD skating, especially if you are mainly pumping the board. As for trucks, usually around 150mm works well and it helps if the trucks are run quite loose or are a turny design to begin with...as in the Carver's. Wedging the front also helps with turniness (is that a real word!) and dewedging the rear adds stability... we can see this demonstrated most in the slalom world.
As for wheels, something large like a 76 mm wheels takes a bit more to get going but carries its momentum well. As well the larger wheels generally require more risers to avoid wheelbite on the relatively wide front of a pumping deck. The slightly smaller wheels like 68 mm Avalons and 65mm Cambrias are popular for pumping (and pushing as well, I might add) as they roll quite easily and grip well during the pumping movements plus the board can be run a little lower to the ground.
I think if you read the recent posts here you will see that both Al and James have made a lot of good points about LD pumping set ups. As for me, I am dreaming of a hybrid that will pump and push well for long distances....could be I'm just dreaming....we'll see.
Hope this helps. Keep experimenting and find out what works best for your skating style, fitness level and the type of terrain you have to skate on.
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got it all wrong?
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On 11/20/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
Mabie i have this pumping lark all wrong, now i have read abit more, i see that alot of you are using longer decks than i've ever had and i think what i'm leaning towards is i spose more like slalom?
The 36" decks i've made have been great set up with the trucks on either end giving me around 32" wheelbase, but i've been using tracker 219's for the stability (i prefer 'real' trucks, springs are for mountainboards!)and using steep angled risers front and back, so they perform alot tighter. I have RII 180's aswell, but never thought of using the 150's for the longboards.
The largest wheel i've used is a 72mm/78a gravity g, but didnt think they were very good even for carving.
Looks like i've got far more to learn than i 1st thought.
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LD pump-cruiser
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On 11/20/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Hey James, thanks for reporting back on your recent Flexdex 60 inch deck skate.
I too have been experimenting a lot with board length and long distance skating ideas this week. We had a couple of (rare) rain free days and on one I made it out twice with a different board each time!
I continue to find the 60 inch board to be lovely for the long distance cruisy type pumps. Granted I am still running 180mm R2's (150's are on their way though) yet the longer board just seems more powerful for the pump. It performs well on small short inclines too.
However, by paying careful attention to how I like to skate long distances, I have discovered that I truly am NOT a pump-purist! I like to throw in some switch pushing for varity and to give my muscles a change from the pumping. I am thinking that I will not likely become loyal to just one or the other technique when skating long distances.
That was an important discovery for me as it will affect the type of deck and hardware that I set as up my designated long distance board. Of course there are already quite a few decks in my quiver that can 'go the distance' so to speak but I am in the designing/planning stages for a board that will be used specifically for long distances (as in 20 - 30 km ).
So I'm back to my hybrid board then. I am still thinking about 48 inches as it is shorter than the long 60 inch pleasure cruiser/pumper but still will carry some of the long board's qualities. I'll probably go with 150 R2's mainly because I can run them loose but with good return to centre using my stash of green Stims. I should be able to be run with fewer risers than say the Carvers thus keeping the board as low as possible for the pushing part and as loose as possible for the pumping part of the skate.
The world of the hybrid is a challenging one. A hybrid board will undoubtedly be not quite as good as one that is specific to either just pumping or just pushing. A board just for pumping can be a little high off the ground allowing for very turny trucks. A board for pushing is best low to the ground making the kicking easier. So I'll have to see if I can capture as much of the 'best of both worlds' as possible and arrive at a efficient pumper and comfortable pusher. If I can pull it off I think it would be awesome to have a set up on which you can alternate pumping and switch-pushing. What a great way to go long distances on a skateboard. I'm stoked about this idea and look forward to seeing how it comes together. I'll keep you posted here and please do keep your own ideas coming...its a great help to me in this project specifically and in sharing the discoveries of long distance skating in general.
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to make things clear....
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On 11/20/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
To be more plain,
depending on your hight and weight, the best setup for optimum sideways force?
like i know what i'm talking about............
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pumping newbie
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On 11/20/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
I'm very intrigued to hear of people pumping uphill, i've got alot to learn!
I've been making longboards a few years, but my shorter 24"-34" decks have been alot of fun this summer, i've been wedging my trucks and trying to pump as much as i can, i just dont know if i'm setting up right?
Is there a formula weight/truck width/wheelbase/boardlength, if you get my meaning, as i've read about this, but dont know if the adjustments i'm making are the right ones??
My setup at the moment:
deck 30"x7.5" birch ply flat,
front truck bolts 1" from nose,
rear truck bolts 5" from tail,
between inside bolts 19 1/4",
trucks 145mm fibrelite aft145,
front steep angle, rear low de-wedged,
wheels 70mm/72a flashbacks,
it seems to be doing the job, but i'm gonna get some tracker rtx/rts's soon.
Any pointers???
cheers.
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LD pump deck and concave
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On 11/20/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
Al and Airin, couple weeks back I took out the Flexdex60 again. Momentum is magic on that thing. Once a board that length's moving fast, you can lock into consistent, long pumps and the boards weight seems to keep it going. For mellow cruisin where most of the terrain is flat to slight decline, the weight of deck and trucks helps to generate speed, and I still like that setup for a cruise. On the flip side, you'll feel its heft on long extended gradual inclines. So for performance, the shorter (tho not too short) 30--34" wheelbase and a little camber/pop in the equation feels perfect.
With hard concave built into a deck, I've experienced the same foot pain you're talking about Al. The Arbor pintail is sweet for downhilling, short sprints, or mile rides. But when you're up on the deck longer, unless you're taking short push rests I think the hard concaves stress the arch somewhat. At the same time, I like just a little extra leverage/concave on opposing toe and heel sides for pumping uphill, and watching Brad Jackman shred it got me toying around with PPS soft wedge pads this summer. Since you strategically stick the concave exactly where its preferred, its easy to experiment, without having to custom-order decks or warp a chunk of wood. The foam is easy to shave and shape. And since it has some give to it, so far I haven't had the same kind of "pain in the arch"
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marathon pumps seattle 2006!
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On 11/17/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
Joe, its cool to hear the cross-town pump and flatlanding scene pickin up steam. Thats a pretty fast time you posted on the 8.3, with that mixed terrain the average speed is over 21mph, yowza... You're probably aware the NW has some push and/or pump races, the Portland Push series in OR and a couple marathons in Seattle, now 3 years running! The Portland series is run by Josh Burt, a cross-town format sometimes with fast hills and crazy city obstacles.
In both the Seattle Solstice (13m/26m) and the MS Skate (12m/24.7m), the fastest speeds were 12mph averaged over the duration of the Burke Gilman trail - with a huge emphasis on pumping. I'm biking it this winter with an altimeter to map out the true terrain, but after having rode it many times, it seems like the gradual declines cancel out the gradual inclines with a grand sum of 'pretty damn flat.' The coolest thing is both races end near Fremont, a very hip Seattle 'burb. The events go rain or shine, so I always pray to the sun gods for a pump race... if its rain, then its slap on the big honkin' flywheels and push 'til your legs fall off (...or just crawl to the local pub.)
I'm hoping for an even bigger showing next year -- the Solstice Skate will be the 3rd Sunday of June 2006, and the MS Skate is August 20th 2006. And next year, longboarding is "officially" a part of the MS Skate brochures and flyers!
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Don O' Shei
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On 11/17/2005 GI Joe
wrote in from
United States
(65.19.nnn.nnn)
Cool, if anyone deserves a model it's that guy!
He has put in his fair share to promote skateboard
racing, Fat City Racing is a legend and an
inspiration to many of us promoters.
Have any of you done crosstown races?
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comet
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
What's the length of your comet Adam?
and yeah, definitely a combo of pumping and switch pushing is killer for going long distances. Right now that's my formula and though I'm not going to set any speed records I do regularly use this method to skate a 25 km loop on my 60 inch LBL with 180 R2's and gumballs. I am thinking of switching to 150 Randals to see how that feels but I'm always kind of shy of wheelbite...risers help avoid it but can put you kind of high when doing the pump/switch push combo.
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Comet O'Shei
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(64.81.nnn.nnn)
Comet Don O'Shei is correct. It's circa 2002, I think. Bamboo core, triaxial glass top and bottom with dual carbon strips running the length of the deck.
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Comet O'Shei
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On 11/17/2005
GI Joe
wrote in from
United States
(65.19.nnn.nnn)
Adam, don't you mean Jon O'Shei model? I have one and race it for
tight slalom, it rocks! Same thing, wedge the front and de-wedge
the back so it steers predictably. I haven't visited this forum
before and find it really cool to have one site that has so many
little niches that users are likely to cross over. Even if it
takes years!
OK, I'll jump right in. At the last Sandia All Around Challenge
there was an 8.3 mile Cross Town race, we had run it once before.
There is a little down hill at the start, to gently sloping striped
bike lane with a few miles of flat in the middle and a few blocks
of slightly uphill just before the end. This years winner was Ryan
Ricker in 23.5 minutes, a new course record by nearly 7 minutes!
Pumping is a key factor in these kinds of races and we saw most
racers on bacisally long slalom set ups and ditch boards. Everyone
ran Randal 150's with the exception of Jason Mitchell on Radikals.
I ran my Dregs 44' concave pintail with 76 mm Goddess of speed
wheels. Ryan also won on the Dregs Pintail. It's VERY pumpable
and yet stable at 30 plus with the 150's.
I'd say that pumping over 12 mph takes much less effort than
pushing and that in a distance race conserving energy will
make or break you. The more you practice it the easier it gets
and when combined with switch pushing....watch out! I'm sure
I sound like a race fanatic and should find my way back over to
Speedboarding and Slalom, but I am curious what kind of distances
you guys pump across. I read something about 1/2 amaraton?
Anyone interested in the next crosstown race in Abq? It could
be sooner than you think.
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what's your deck?
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
My deck is a Comet Don O'Shei stiff flex flipped to provide rocker. The trucks are 146mm Seismics with 8mm axles. I use a flat 1/2" riser on front for added leverage, and a wedged riser at rear to remove some tail steering. I use extra light spring up front, heavier out back. It CRANKS.
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what's your deck?
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
What deck are you using for your pumping set up Adam?
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Seismic Hot Spot 77a for pumping
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On 11/17/2005
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
Turquoise blue Avalons were my favorite pumping wheel for a long time until I got my hands on Dan's new Seismic Hot Spot wheels in 77a. With ceramic bearings, proper bearing spacers, and a true 8mm axle, my pumping deck almost propels itself. ;)
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thanks for your input guys!
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On 11/17/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for all the info guys. This is really helpful!
I agree greatly with the 3dm's, I have found the Avalons to be my favourites so far too.
Really, really useful info on the risers set ups with the various wheel/truck combos James - thanx!
Yeah of course some wheel wells would definitely be a good idea too.
Ok, we've got a wink of dry pavement so I'm heading out to pump some more...
later,
airin
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pump set-ups
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On 11/17/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Airin,
I'll throw my 2 cents in, again, on this one. I don't know if you have wheel wells cut into your deck or not, but if you don't, you need them. After you have these you can then adjust the height, with risers, to the type of wheels you're using. I'm with Peters on the 3DM wheels. I like all of them, but generally use the Avalons. There is something with the edges of the 3DMs, that give a little extra push when pumping. I think it's because they are sharp,and very flexible, as compared to rounded and more ridgid edges found on the Gumballs, Abec 11, Kryptonics etc..
Oh...another thing I never mentioned in my previous posts...Double pumping. Someday you have to throw someone on back of your 48 incher and try tamdem pumping..its a kick! I rode like this with my niece who is fairly light and a good torsion pumper. We had no problem keeping the rhythym. More experiments with this to come!
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carver & risers
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On 11/16/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(67.168.nnn.nnn)
airin, with most flatland pump setups some extra riser may be unavoidable, but as long as the bushings are tight and in good shape (before they blow out) then wheelbite risk can be almost nil. Setups that have worked are:
- CarverC7 + 60mm NoSkools + 1/2" soft angled riser
- CarverCX + 62mm Cambrias + 1/2" hard riser + 1 shock pad
- CarverCX + 68mm Avalons + 5/8" Original hard riser + 1 or 2 shock pads
- CarverCX + 75mm Avilas + 5/8" Original riser+1/2" hard riser (1-1/8" total)
note - these are setup for flatland pumping, where 99% of the time your feet are off the ground.
in contrast, with pushing you're temporarily and repeatedly supporting weight with the front leg (feeling front quad burn) so that's why pushers don't like to have a board that feels too jacked up -- all the up and down movement can feel like a pogo stick. A good middle ground is probably the Avalon or Cambria-the lower CG feels more stable all around if you're carving some hills as well as pumping flats, and inclines are easier to pump when the wheels are smaller.
even on Randal 150s with Grippins, I still had to use about 3/4" of riser because generating momentum on flats, you're cranking hard and carving deep. as loose as I like to keep Randals, avoiding the dreaded 'bite required almost the same amount of riser.
in any case, whenever I mount up a trial setup, I stand on the extreme edge over a front wheel and push the deck down, then have a buddy eyeball the gap between wheel and deck (there better be a gap!) then if there's still at least 1/2" of play, then just take it super slow and speed up very gradually. that way at ride-time you can get a little wheel 'rub' rather than a bite, then hop off and throw on a little extra riser... rinse lather repeat ;-)
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How to Pump