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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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hmmm?
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Has anyone got info on when wedging and making nose and tail diffrent hights, is it best to have deck leaning towards the nose, tail or flat???
Whats the best for a good pump???
Cheers, Steve.
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Erin
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Yeah, they could have told me how uncomfotable it was gonna be after, gits!
I've been flipping the hangers on my RII's, for longer more stable carves for a while, befroe i started wedging i did just the rear truck, but im, gonna try wedging now, gives me somthing to do while i'm stuck in. Do you upgrade the bushings? I've never changed the yellows on the RII's as my local shop holds mainly short board equipment so i did try some indy's, but just used them as top bushings as all 4 come as cones, but they are a good urethane, they also do 'deluxe carpbuster tackand supply supercrush' which i've been using a while, cant find Khiro's over here.
Anyhow, i've always been a little put off by loose trucks, my mate runs his RII's at a rattle, which scared the life out of me when i had a go, dont know whether its my 13.5st 5'8" frame but i like to feel the resistance in the bushings one edge to the other, but with a good return, need to find some new rubbers i think.
P.S. Think you would like my 36 cruiser shape for pumping?
Click here for link
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today's Vice-grip skate
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
This time of year in Vancouver you have to sneak in a skate the moment the pavement shows the slightest hint of drying. Today was one of those days. By 10 am I was out on the seawall giving the Vice a workout. The board behaved quite politely.
If I was to get really picky I'd say I would still like a little more room at the nose. But with the wheelbase already at 26 inches ( I measured it to be sure and was surprised to find it less than I had first estimated ) I wouldn't really want to move the trucks back much more. In fact the wb felt really quite good.
The more stiff deck is definitely an advantage as it seems more power can be transfered to the board with stiffer flex. That said, a bit of 'pop', as James describes it, is a welcome feature in a LDP deck as well. For that, this deck could do to have just a touch more flex for my body weight.
And all in all it is good to have some width under those pumping pistons. It wouldn't do to go much more narrow than the Vice for LDP applications. I felt Jame's LBL deck, for example, had a lot of board to work with when pumping. A board that is too streamlined just doesn't seem to have the omphf necessary for pumping.
As for the trucks, to be honest, and probably because I have had quite a few years of experience on 180 mm trucks, the 150's sometimes feels a little tippy and the odd overexuberant set of pumps often had one of the front wheels off the tarmac. But I'm sure in time I'll become more in tune with these trucks.
I miss the power on the uphills that the wider trucks provide but on the flats the cadence of the 150's seems just right.
Well now I dont' have many excuses - its time to really work on pumping technique! I'll be working on various stances and trying to make the pumps as efficient as possible. Right now I still feel pretty slow and at times awkward going long distances on the board but I'm hoping the speed and grace will come as my technique improves.
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wedged trucks
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
'ouch' munchh! hope the recovery speed along!
Yeah I do wedge the Randals depending on the application. For example I run my 180's wedged on the front of my DH...go figure. For me its a case of trial and error. If a board runs more the way I like it to with the hardware modified I go for it.
I have the 180 R2's wedged on my 44 inch LBL cruiser but not on my 60 inch LBL. So it just depends what type of skating I intend to do on a particular board as to whether I'll wedge the trucks or not.
Along the same lines, I often flip the hangers on the R2's. I just really like the how the turns are 'smoothed out' that way.
As for loose, for the front truck, I like to run the Randals loose. Again even my speedboard has relatively loose trucks with soft bushings. I have always enjoyed skateboards the feel 'alive'under my feet hence the loose trucks and soft bushing combo.
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Nice looker Erin.
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On 12/8/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Lookin good Erin, i've never wedged RII's though, i always wondered if you would wedge them opposite from standard geometry trucks, looks like i'm learning again, can you still run them loose? Or are they responsive enough not to?
Will be trying a few diffrent setups as soon as the weather sorts its self out and i get these splints out of my nose.
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one more pic
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, here's a pic of the top of the Vice-grip as well.
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'vice grip'
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric I'll try post some picture here. When I get a chance to put some more kilometres on this new LDP deck I'll report back on how it compares to the longer wb boards. But then again I skated those mostly using the 180 R2's and like James as suggested, a 150 truck offers a much more versatile cadence than a wider truck which is good when you have created some speed or are on a slight downhill.
As for the trap, I've got to look into that. I have been practicing cyber but have not yet played with skating the trap.
I'll try a few different options for photos and see which works. Here we go:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Eyrinn/vicegrippinstop.jpg
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Rayne LDP
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On 12/7/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin that Rayne Vice sounds like a perfect LD pumper. I'd like to hear more about how it matches up with the R2 150's and grippins. Does the truck/wheel combo equal the width of the deck or is it narrower than the deck? Please post a pic here or on sf, if you get a chance.
40" seems to be a very good size to me, as does a 27" wb. I'm looking at decks in the 36" to 40" for a medium distance pumper. I know you were thinking longer for your LBL LDP, but I'm wondering how you find the 40 compared to the longer cruising deck you had the trucks and wheels on before. Which is easier/faster to pump?
The side profile of the Vice looks almost exactly like the profiles of James'
LBL 43" and his Roe S camber in the picture below. Nice choice.
Also I'm wondering if you or James or anyone here has run the trap?
I know you do cyber slalom and the trap is similar, but different.
What do you (anyone) think would be the ideal deck size and truck/wheel
combo for the ideal trap set up? I'm thinking something between a big GS slalom board and a LDP type set up. I want a set up to use for the trap and medium distance pumping/skogging. Thanks - Eric.
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LDP "Vice"
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Finally I have a deck that is specifically set up for LDP. For the past months I have been running R2 180's on cruiser boards and working on my pumping technique with those sets ups as well as on my slalom decks.
Yesterday I purchased a Rayne Vice. This 40 inch board had a gentle concave and slight camber. I had Graham of Rayne drill another set of front truck mount holes so that now the trucks are about three inches from the nose and the wheel base is 27 inches. I added a foot block on the extra front hole and mounted my new 150 R2's. I am still waiting for my new Hot Spots so I put some split duro Grippins on for the time being. I wedged the front 15 degrees and the back about 10 degrees which is more than I have ever wedged a LDP board.
Given my size 7 1/2 feet and 130 lb bag of bones, this board seems perfect for me. The relative stiffness of the flex really made a big difference to the ease with which this set up pumps. And, for the first time, I really noticed how the narrower trucks contributed to a very comfortable 'cadence' when in the pumping groove.
I'll report back when I have put a bit more milage on this set up but at the moment this is by far the most effient ride for LDP that I have had so far.
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LDP trucks
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
James thanks for your summary of the function of the trucks you have used for LDP. It is so helpful to the development to the relatively new discipline of skating long distance via pumping to have you share your discoveries and observations.
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re: LDP breakage
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On 12/6/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
There's few if any trucks currently built with long distance pumping in mind, which figures, given the newness of this as a 'sport' + its small market. Non-stop flatland torque heats up and fatigues parts quickly. So far the front CarverCX has gone the longest mileage without failure (500m+), although I've broken two *back* Grade-8 kingpins with these this year. On Carver C7s and RTR just one small internal spring has broken -- which I'll take any day over a kingpin snap. These don't bust into two parts, but just get loose, so you know somethings not quite right and you can step off and fix it.
By the way Erin the RTR guys ROCK! - they sent multiple springs and said thanks for "riding the hell out of our trucks." And yeah its fairly easy to pop new springs in, though realize these surf trucks are made of about 25 puzzle parts, whereas the CX or Randals are 5-6 parts total. Same thing with Original when my bushings and baseplates blew out, they replaced them straight up and even sent extras. As for Randals/Gullwings/SplitFires I still dig 'em, just ALWAYS flip the Grade-8 kingpins and replace blown-out bushings, which lengthens their lifespan for a couple hundred+ miles (instead of 80-90 mile average standard mounted.)
Again most of this breakage doesn't apply to downhill carving and casual or intermittent pumping -- its seems kingpins rarely break for downhillers, and surf trucks like Carvers and RTRs will last almost "indefinately" for the downhill carving and mellow cruising they were designed for.
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breakage
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On 12/2/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Another issuse for me is breakage. This seems part and parcel of long distance applications with trucks that were not specificaly designed with that type of skating in mind.
I am reluctant to experiment with many different trucks in the same way as James has done due, not only to the excessive costs of getting trucks shipped in from the States, but also to the difficulty and cost incurred getting parts for repair.
Right now I am sticking to R2's as it is a truck that I can obtain and repair easily.
James I really enjoyed skating those RTR trucks that you had mounted on your LBL deck. How are things going in terms of replacing/repairing the spring? Is it fairly easy to do?
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back-front systems
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On 12/2/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Can't wait to see what you're creating Chris. Taking pre-orders?! I was glad to see Carver and RTR designed carving 'systems', though I think still more thought can go into the back truck, both of those use a traditional rear truck, which is why I'm now trying Tracker offsets or Split-fire in back.
My prefs are: Front - loose swivel, with high performance rebound, optionally split-axle geometry. Back - adjust tightness with bushing duros and tightening kingpin nut, split-axle / off-set geometry. What would be really great in a new front truck is the ability to use larger wheels (75mm) without having to jack up the deck too far to avoid bite. For this reason right now I'm digging the RTRs...
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Paradigm Shift
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On 12/2/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
For those just joining the discussion, we're talking about two different things here:
1. How loose or tight your trucks are (front vs rear).
2. How much or how little steering your trucks provide, given the same amout of lean (front vs rear).
For as long as skateboarding has existed, 99.99% of all boards haved feature the same truck on the front of the board as the back. It makes sense from a production standpoint - make one truck instead of two. Unlike cars and bikes that provide no rear steering, we've all become used to the way a skateboard turns. In an effort to avoid the unstable feeling of a board that steers like a forklift, we've typically relied on two ways of "taming" the amount of rear steer. We've narrowed the width of the deck in the rear to avoid over-leveraging by the rear foot. This was probably more of a "surfboard shape carryover" then it was a performance feature, but it works out nicely for us. We've also tightend the rear truck more than the front. One nice aspect of traditional truck design is that tightening the truck smashes down the bushings which changes the truck's geometry - it reduces the steering angle. Somewhat unwittingly, we've limped along using the same trucks (front and rear) quite well, and have accepted the limitations.
The seventies was a great time for skaters to try new setups. Competition helped motivate skaters to develop and modify equipment to get better performance. The wedge pad was a simple solution for changing a truck's steering. It's a great invention, but the skateboarding community has suffered to a certain extent because of it. Most truck vendors still only make one geometry per style, and we're litearally forced to use wedge pads or bend our boards to make them turn differently. In a few cases where I want my board to be symmetrical front and back, having the same truck makes perfect sense. In all other cases it's a nightmare. Wedging can make the front higher of lower than the back. Wedging can make you deck unnecessarily higher off the ground. Mounting hardware has to come in 2, 3, or even 4 different lengths on a single board. What we really want is to have a number of different geomtries offered in the basepaltes, all of which put the axles at the same ride height. I've been designing, fabricating and riding my own prototype trucks this way, and it's been like a breath of fresh air.
Assuming that in the "not too distant" future, truck systems like this will be available, I think that you'll find that RARELY will you set up your boards with the same baseplate front and rear. Even if the front and rear trucks are tensioned the same, they will steer differently. For pure speed in tight/medium slalom racing and in pumping uphill, a quick turning and loose front with a slow turning and tight rear works best for me. I haven't tried this for any real long distances, but I'd have to guess that a bit more rear steering may be useful when the wheelbase gets longer and/or the wheels get softer or taller.
In any event, I'm glad that there is a paradigm shift in how we're addressing the two distinct ends of the board. Each end deserves a different truck, and I aim to give them one.
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loose + tight its arrrright
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On 12/1/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
For powering turns, picking up speed, and climbing inclines the back truck is my primary source of power and the front tells the deck where to go. After much trial and error on different setups I find the basic tenets of my slalom decks are identical or similar to my LDP deck, just scaled up a notch or two. Loose but responsive front, tight + stiff rear, camber farther up the board and a lowered 'pocket' for the back foot. My Roe cutaway S-camber 28" for TS/hybrid, and Longboard Larry 43" for LDP have a very similar profile:
On slight declines or perfect flats, when speed is nearly maxed out, I do find it effortless to ride the nose and pump a loose front truck, like a top-end 'cruising' gear. This high-end gear is interesting in that sometimes I'm teetering on two front wheels and just one in the back -- careful not to pearl the deck on asphalt!! Then when I need more control, or when speed decreases, one foot remains over the front truck while the back foot slides farther back to power the board forward again.
Airin, your HotSpots are gonna rock -- 77a is a versatile duro. I normally run those real soft 72a wheels on my LDP decks when I don't know beforehand what the trail conditions are going to be like, or only mount as back wheels for traction. But if I'm sure that most of the trail is butter smooth then I'd even be tempted toward 82a or 86a to reduce rolling resistance...
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loose front trucks
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On 12/1/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I dunno Al, though I'm not very experienced at LD pumping I always run my front trucks much looser than the rear. For that matter I have pretty well always longboarded with this method. And of course in slalom it is a no brainer to have the front looser than the rear.
I find that I really 'wiggle' the front trucks side to side to get going when I am pumping and then I rock back and forth in a nice rhythmical pattern once I'm going and want to keep up the momentum. For this I rely upon very loose trucks in the front. As for the rear, what I expect of those trucks is for them to track nicely and not interfere with the front grabbing and pulling me along.
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LD Pump odds n ends
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On 12/1/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Erin, since Chris prefers to pump using the rear trucks as the driving force of the board his analysis of turning radius and the need to tighten the rear trucks makes sense. However, for riders who prefer to use the front trucks to generate the speed, like Peters and myself, exactly the opposite needs to be done... the front trucks need to be tightened and the rear loosened. As stated before, I use the rear trucks mostly for stabilizing the board, and then, sometimes when I'm real tired. In this sense, a huge benefit of using the forward trucks in LD is that you always have rear trucks as a back up when you start to lose momentum on a long ride. Sometimes I slow down almost to a stop, while drinking water etc..and then use the back trucks as sort of a first gear to get me going again. I am somewhat of a purist in this sense because I never like to kick once I start pumping..unless there are hills. However, I do ride and adjust my trucks like Chris, using the back trucks for propulsion when I want to sprint or race in-liners as it seems that the back trucks give more thrust over short distances. Anyway, I appreciated Chris' accurate description of the essencial mechanism and means that velocity is achieved in pumping. It's actually a bit difficult to understand, and somewhat like trying to describe the mechanics of a moving snake, or a swimming fish. Anyway it was a good description..probably the best I've read yet! So, I think the mechanism for generating the power in pumping is as he described...it only needs to be decided which set of trucks you want to use as your primary source of power...and for what purpose. For me, fronts for LD riding and backs or both trucks adjusted equally, for sprints and other shorter distances under 1 k. If Peters would care to comment, I'd like to hear his opinion on this?
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another step closer
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On 11/30/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, I just won some 77a Hot Spots on ebay. They are going on my recently purchased 150 R2's and are headed for my yet to be built LBL pumping deck.
I was torn between the 74a wheels and 77a....it seems that soft is the way to go in terms of a slalom wheel for the LD skates. Hopefully 77 will be soft enough.
So with some bones reds and mounted on my cruiser board for the time being I'll test these wheels out on a familar route to see how they compare to the 81a/78a Grippins I have been running. I'll keep you posted...just in case anyone's interested in the slow emergence of a designated pumping set up. ;-)
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60/30 done!
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for the advice Chris. I had the front of my R2's wedged but just dewedged the rear as you suggested. Now here's hoping it doesn't snow tonight so that I can test drive this set up tomorrow.
When you mentioned 'narrowing' the hangers on the 150 R2's are you talking going to Geezer with the trucks? Or is there some other way?
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Sixty Thirty
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On 11/28/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
If you have a couple of trucks with 45 degree geometry and a couple of 15 degree wedge pads, try wedging 15 degrees INTO the front truck and 15 degrees OUT OF the rear truck. This will give you a 60 degree front and a 30 degree rear. Use narrowish hangers and high rebound bushings. Firm, but high rebound and high traction wheels. Keep the front loose and the back tight.
With a setup like this you will find that you don't waste a lot of energy by having too much rear steering. You are able to really "drive" off the back truck by pushing back away from the outside of each turn. If you have too much rear-steering, the board may turn easily at slower speeds but not translate your energy into an efficient pump. With too much rear-steering, the back end steers toward the outside of the turn, rather than directing the pump in a more forward direction.
If you have Randal R-II 150's, try narrowing the hangers and using 10 degree wedges to get to 60/40 geometry. Once you feel the drive off of your back truck, you'll never want to go 50/50 again.
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one step closer
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Well I'm one step closer to getting my first specialized long distance pumping rig. Today my 150 R2's arrived in the mail complete with upgraded 3 inch grade 8 kingpins, inverted! (Thanks to Jamie of McPhails in Waterloo Ontario!) I put some green stims on the bottom and a blue Khiro bottom barrel bushing on top. As well I added a 'bushing toe stop'. Mounted on my 44 inch LBL cruising board that I usually pump with 180 R2's, I took off for a test ride.
The narrower trucks are much easier to get going. There is something to this idea of 'gears' depending on the truck set up, and probably wheelbase as well. Going from 180's to 150's was definitely like switching to a smaller sprocket.
So next I'm lining up some Hot Spots as my main pumping wheels. And then the icing on my cake, a custom LBL pumping deck. Larry is still working on ideas that I pepper him in my quest for a deck which will suit my riding style and terrain. Its not ALL about gear (....it's not?!) but it sure is fun gathering the parts that should facilitate improving my pumping technique.
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footblocks other options
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On 11/28/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
One footstop that works well is simply a PPS foam wedge pad mounted at the nose, with the fat edge pointing toward the foot. Stryker has his slalom Axe set up this way. He even takes a dremel to it to match the shape of his foot/shoe exactly. A few guys use the TNRs, they're excellent of course. Pauliwog pokes a bolt up through the bottom of the deck at both tail and nose, I rode his setup down at WSU and could crank through 4.5' center spaced cones!
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TNR link
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Here's the link to the TNR foot block in case you're interested:
http://www.tnrdesigns.com/skateboards.htm
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foot block
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
In slalom the foot block or toe stop is often used so that the skater doesn't slide too far up the nose while pumping through a tight course. I have a TNR foot block on one slalom board and more 'homemade' bushing toe stops on the others. I was wondering how one of these would be on a long distance deck. Has anyone experimented with footblocks for applications other than slalom?
I'm going to give the TNR a try on my up and coming LBL designated long distance pumping deck. Come to think of it, maybe I'll start experimenting with this right now on one of my cruiser boards.
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pump family
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On 11/28/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Airin, you're an amazingly generous host, and the buzz is still resonating from our great pump cruise around Stanley Park. Thank you! Meeting up was a huge highlight for us all. A slalom fest up there next year would be great.
By the way you and Eric are far too complimentary - I'm always jonesin' to get out and learn new things from each other on each ride, the discoveries are endless. And thanks for the comment on the quiver Eric, many experimental decks have come and gone, I'll try to add some of those in the near future.
Notice when Eric chanted 'pump master', Dan The Man appeared from the fog! Dan - I think all my links are updated now, please PDF me! My favorite quote: "...A note of caution - You may find that pumping becomes addictive. It is a truly magical feeling to propel yourself indefinitely, without ever touching the ground or lifting any of your wheels..." -Amen.
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How to Pump