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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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yo wheels
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On 1/26/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for that explanation Chris. Now I understand what you mean by 'rebound'.
I appreciate your suggestions and insights.
And, given what you've said, I think I will take your advice and try a set of your new wheels for long distance pumping.
again, thanx
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Mo Wheels
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On 1/26/2006
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
Don't sell off your current wheels. Trust me on this - you can never have too many good wheels. Increase the overall number of boards in your quiver so that you can offer "loaner" boards to newbies, or to do A/B testing. Over the next few years you'll be trying out new trucks, new bushings, new riser/wedge combos, new decks, mounting hardware, grip-systems, etc. During these changing times it's nice to keep your options open.
Here's the deal on our latest and greatest urethane formulas. Having a high level of resilience ("rebound" or "elasticity") has a profound effect on the roll-speed and feel of urethane wheels. A single urethane formula will have it's peak rebound at a certain durometer (hardness). As the durometer of the wheel moves away from this formula's peak, a certain percentage of rebound goes away. Simply speaking, wheels are either soft, firm, or hard in the seventies, eighties, or nineties respectively. Many of the downhill/cruiser wheels have formulas that peak in rebound in the seventies, which is ideal for straight line rolling and/or wider high speed turns. Most of these wheels are too soft (mushy) for hard carving, pumping, and the snappier turns in slalom.
The "Reflex" formula has its peak rebound in the eighties, where carvers, pumpers and slalom racers benefit from a firmer wheel. The wheels are harder and yet feel very lively. It tends to make wheels feel softer than wheels of the same durometer with less rebound. We've found that you get the roll-speed of (ususally softer) high rebound wheels with the responsiveness and control of firmer wheels. I think that they are perfectly suited to pumping and that you'll like them. Try some and let us know what you think.
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six wheels and rebounding wheels
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On 1/26/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Peter, that's totally wild looking! I can actually imagine the added traction the six wheeler would have. So next time I'm heading for the (big) hills, I may have to take an extra truck and set of wheels. In the meantime, I too will stick with a four wheeler for pumping the flats. But hey, who knows what's around the corner for us LDP'ers?
On the topic of wheels.
So now that I just stocked up on my wheels for slalom and LDP - Avalons, Hot Spots and Avilas - out come rave reviews of the Zig Zags. So I can't really imagine that their grip is that much different from a regular slalom wheel but what's all the talk of 'rebound'. Never really heard it come up that much before. What's the deal with it and why is it a good thing and don't other wheels have it too?
So should I rush to the 'bay and sell off my other wheels to get some new 'Put wheels or will the current stock of cone running wheels serve me faithfully for a while yet? What'cha think?
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sticky experiments
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On 1/24/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Erin - the 6-wheelers' felt so sticky carving down a couple little hills today, where I'd expect slippage there was *none* - but BWAAAHAHAHAHA! - as suspected that big LDP 6-er was a TANK on flats which is also from the 4 humongous Avilas on the back! Smaller wheels and lighter dubba-trucks, might make more sense for flats, but I'm stickin' to (ONE set) of offsets until then.
On the other hand, this little Roe-Hollien with HotSpots was amazing on my test hill!
Adam, any pics of your Seismic stik? Would like to see how you config'd it. Also, you will DIG the Retros urethane, Michael brought 'em last weekend and let us take a test drive...ohhhh man they're suction-cups AND super-ball responsive at the same time!
eddie, sounds like your deck is dialed already! I've done my share of mucked-up drill holes ;-) My first Roe looks like the Swiss-cheese model...
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Hot Spots are the sh@!
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On 1/24/2006
Chris
wrote in from
United States
(158.48.nnn.nnn)
I just wanted to post that I have been trying to learn to pump for a while on my 32 inch Gravity Buttons Board. I was rolling blue kryptonic classics for a while. Then I got some 77a Hot Spots and they turned my board into a mad pumper. Now I can pump up small hills. These wheels are awesome!!!!
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Peters/ flexy
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On 1/24/2006 eddie
wrote in from
United States
(70.112.nnn.nnn)
thanks. im pretty nervious about drilling into it. ive been known mess stuff like that up. i didnt like standing inside the front and back truck, but i got used to it. i just bend the hell out of that thing. i put some randall 180s and some 70mm 74a krypto's on it. im really diggin it. i can carve waaay more deep than on my other stuff. when in lean back real hard and turn it feels like a suction cup.
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MD on Retros
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On 1/24/2006
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
Mmmm.. wave of energy..
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Retros
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On 1/24/2006
Michael Dong
wrote in from
United States
(204.11.nnn.nnn)
Adam, You will freak when you ride the new Retros. The 86 duro feels like an 80. The 80 feels like you are floating on a wave of energy. These wheels are awesome for pumping. Fantastic roll speed.
Michael
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standard/offset rear truck
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On 1/24/2006
Adam
wrote in from
United States
(198.144.nnn.nnn)
I totally agree on the stiffly sprung rear setup. I run original gold springs on my German Seismics at rear, original ultra-light silvers up front. Going to try the new ABEC11 Retro wheels this week in the lime green formula to see just how lively Chaput's new urethane really is.
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standard/offset rear truck
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On 1/24/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
The stiff rear trucks, even the Seismics, return power when set up right with stiff springs tightened all the way. Though the Seismic/CX combo is really more of a short-pump experiment for now.
IMHO the best rear truck for long distance flatland pumping will be a light, single off-set like a Tracker or Split-Fire. But the stock Indys, Trackers, and Carvers work just fine. I think that 6-wheeler makes the most sense going downhill with speed, since average speed on flats hovers between only 10--15 mph most of the time. Powering off the rear wheels is important, but sliding out is hardly a concern (though its surprising when it does happen!) One of the best optimizations last year was having Roe and LBLarry build *lightweight* decks, and for trucks I go along the same lines...minimize weight.
The other thing I really like about the Carver CX is...no more of this...
...so far anyway!
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reat truck talk
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On 1/24/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Munchh, the Carver CX's reat truck IS essentially a 'normal' truck. Nothing that different with their rear truck from that of an Indy, say.
As yes, generally the rear truck is tighter than the front and sometime sports harder bushings as well. It is meant to follow the front and provide traction if needed - depending on the application... i.e. flatland pumping vs slalom pumping.
James, that six wheeler is looking hot!!!! Let us know how it skates...flatland in particular, as there are already a lot of thumbs up for the six wheeler in slalom. It seems the boys are enjoying the increased traction the double rear trucks give. Now I am really curious whether the six wheels will have any positive impact on LDP.
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Cx's
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On 1/24/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
So from what i'm reading and seeing (6 wheeler funny man), the carver cx is the closest thing to a perfect skumping truck this far in?
What i'm still not clear on is, the rear? The last thing i expected was the seismic! Do you not set up the rear to be stiff, or do you still need movement from it?
Again, i have assumed the likeness to a slalom setup!
Am i better off using my racetracks on my 36" than just some 150's wedged and can you use the carver cx with a normal truck at the rear?
Questions, questions...........i'm gonna get this eventually!!!!
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gettin HIGH on LDP
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On 1/24/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Check it, a 6-wheeler skumping deck!
Psych!! just havin' fun ;-) For pumping flatland its probably like dragging a caboose! But I'm mounting up a slalom 6-er just to test the downhill traction.
That 38" Seismic+CX Numbchuck combo is fun for rippin' up parking lots. You need 3+ wedges to off-set the kicktail. Red springs in rear would be snappier. Still unsure about long distance rides though, needs bigger wheels and cut-outs, and I still prefer slight camber. Guess Longboard Larry and Roe-Sect have me spoiled.
As for the HEIGHT and risers, that's right on Erin! LDP setups seem high when you're just standing, lookin at the board. But when you jump on the deck once, take a couple pushes, and you're off and pumpin!! -- then height isn't a big deal.
It's also cool you've found less need for riser, the wedge angle has a lot to do with that. CXs "surf" side to side, swivelling more parallel with deck & ground, rather than angling inward sharply like rev-kingpin Randals. Also when your bushings are in good shape, they won't carve as deeply into the deck. This one's tricky, because on just one really long ride, your front bushing can get chewed up. One marathon tip: be sure to start with fresh bushings, tightened up snug but not so tight they blow out!
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LDP info
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On 1/24/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
polorat12, I found that by reading back through the posts in this section of the forum I learned a lot about the set ups that people were using successfully for pumping. It takes a bit of time but is really interesting. You might want to give that a try.
After that you can start experimenting with what seems to work for you. Everyone's designated pumping board will be a little different from anyone elses as they develop a set up that suits their riding style based on their weight and build. Your idea of Carver CX's and seismics with 70mm wheels may work very well. I don't think you'll have to go over the top with risers on that set up but you'll be able to tell easily yourself once you have the board set up and stand on it leaning it over to a backside position - either there will be a little clearance for the front wheel or there won't!
Read, read, read....then try some possibilities based on what you gleaned here ....and then report back....and then we can go from there!
cheers
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boards
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On 1/23/2006 polorat12
wrote in from
United States
(71.102.nnn.nnn)
i want to get a pumping deck, but i build decks cause they cost too much. but i'm not real sure about what kind of deck. i've heard about some having a kicktail. do you have to have a kick tail? how long should a board be? i like bigger boards like 40 or more inches, but what is recommended.i plan to use a carver cx/seismic setup with some 70mm wheels. do i need big risers or not? i have no clue about boards or concave or anything. you guys are like my teachers and anything would help a lot.
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risers, Avilas and CX's
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On 1/23/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Amazingly SS, I am able to run my CX's and Avilas with just a stock 5 degree riser on the rear (that's the hard plastic riser pad that you can buy at most skate shops) and on the front I use the same stock riser pad with another 2 or 3 degree Khiro wedge. This is all I needed when I ran my Hot Spots and it was surprising to me that when I threw on the Avilas I didn't even have to add more riser. I think it has to do with the way the Carvers turn as opposed the the angle of turn on a more conventional truck.
Perhaps James could comment on this differenec in turn geometry.
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Risers...
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On 1/23/2006 SS
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin how much riser are you using with your CX's and Avilla's?
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board height and rollin'
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On 1/23/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Munchh the height of a board that is used solely for pumping long distances is less of an issue than that of a board the is used for pushing or for 'hybrid' - some pump, some push.
I too was very concerned about deck height when I first got into LDP. I knew that with wheels in the 76mm range that are sweet for rolling over cracks and peagravel, and loosey goosey trucks that allow really easy turning plus the back-from-the-nose truck mounting position it would be riser city. However to my surprise the Carver CX's don't actually need as much riser as a R2's which was a nice bonus for me when I moved my LDP into the realm of the Carvers. As well once I got into pure LDP with no intermittant pushing phases, the deck height issue just kind of disappeared.
Sure I still have my lowrider for when I feel like a alternate leg pushing skate sesh or my five foot cruiser with its 180 R's and gummies for just going for a mellow cruise with the dog. But for all out LDP it is great to have a board set up with trucks and wheels specific to that sport. Afterall, with the right gear a sport can be just that much more enjoyable.
Keep experimenting with what works for you for LDP and when you find that magical combination just leave everything as is for a while and enjoy rollin'!
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rolin elbows?
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On 1/23/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.137.nnn.nnn)
I'm asuming its the 'rollin elbows' that i've seen in your vids, i did have a quick go at this, but by this time my foot wouldn't have it anymore, so i rolled home.
I think i'm goin to set up one of my flat decks, as i was getting on pretty well with my 30", although i was using 150's and they were set right on the nose, so a little adjustment might be needed. I've realised that the set ups must be quite high as with the big wheels you are using, Randals being pretty high compared to normal hanger trucks, i've never needed anymore than a shockpad under the Randals using 70mm's and always needed 1/2" or more for normal trucks, this is another reason i set up on the nose and why alot of my decks are quite narrow!
Gonna keep at it.
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concave and rolling into the LDP
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On 1/23/2006
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Yes I agree that hard concave can be a pain in the foot! But I find some subtle concave very useful for providing a soft edge to press against during the pumping motion. I have never really enjoyed a flat longboard though, interestingly, I've found that for slalom a flat deck seems to be just fine.
I really agree with James about the 'roll' that the pump settles into once the acceleration phase is complete and the body settles in to the rhythm of pumping for the long haul. It is a pleasant feeling this roll and seems to be so smooth, nothing jarring or jerky about it. Having the arms move in a sort of modified joggers arm swing just makes sense from the point of view of conservation of energy or, put another way, efficiency of motion.
James, it seems that peeps often are puzzled and even a bit uncomfortable when they view a new movement in sport. Gradually, when it becomes more common place, they think nothing of it anymore. Take, for example, the 'scrubbing the ice' in curling, or the 'pitch' in cricket.... very strange motions if you have never seen them before. As more of us take up LDP on skateboards, skaters specifically and the public generally will get used to us and won't give the arm swing or rolling technique a second glance.
Lucky you that are getting out there on your boards. The record setting winter of rains contiues up here. So far, I have managed to sneak in two skates outdoors in seven weeks!
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short distance cramp
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On 1/23/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(193.113.nnn.nnn)
Well i wont lie, i hadn't been doing it very far, 1/2 mile mabie, but i think its alot to do with my fitness, i've been sitting around for 3 months, so it to be expected i spose!
I have set up one of my favorite 36" cruisers, this is flat, with 150mm fibrelites, wedged up, its WB is probly 26/28". I used to pump this with my Tracker 219's on either end both wedged, which was alot of fun, pretty bouncy board.
So i think i will put some 65mm noskoolz on the short deck and put the flashbacks on the 36" deck, might make some diffrence?
Eddie, has the sector 9 got a tail, if so its the same as my mates, he has it set up just like you 180 RII's, shogo kubo wheels and he runs the trucks so loose they rattle! He rides with his feet just inside the trucks, but then he skates very diffrent to me so, do what you feel is best, i've never found i ride any of my friends decks the same way they do, but Peters saying about foot over the truck, made a big diffrence for me, so try it all till your happy?
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flexy S9 deck
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On 1/22/2006 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Eddie, that should be a nice little setup, I'd probably drill 2 new sets of truck holes, putting the rear as far back as possible and the front back an inch or more. Personally I like extra leverage being able to stand a little over each truck on a deck that short. Eventually may want to try Randal 150 hangars too! Nice price!
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cramps & shadow boxing
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On 1/22/2006
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Concave is excellent in shorter sprints, but that lip at the deck's edge can kill your feet after a few miles, it raises your toes and flattens out the arch. Its obvious you've actually pumped some long distance Munchh, because most short, casual pump+push sessions would never create that pain...the occasional pushes give your arch a serious breather. So far for skumping, yes, the flat decks work best. Although inspired by one of Stryker's speedboard designs, I'm currently building a deck that has three flat surfaces creating a smoother concave transition. It provides pumping leverage but eradicates that lip!
Once you work up your endurance, a longer wheelbase will pay off on the long rides. The short board will be great for a few miles, but you would probably move to 25"+ wheelbase later as your "stride" gets longer.
Also, hard, swinging slalom pumps are a must for acceleration, but in skumping there's a unique, rolling, "shadow boxing" pump that works more efficiently over distance. Many people comment, question or laugh out loud about this style. I've even seen it referred on other forums as "goofy" or "jerky" ;-) But with every new style comes a load of detractors -- and those who are more open and inquisitive. In fact just yesterday at cyber, Michael Dong was giving his observations on efficiency of my shadow boxing pump for distances, from watching the skumping vids -- that it seemed to maintain energy over the long haul by smoothing out the typical slalom pump edges. I hadn't given it much thought, I've just slapped on the mp3 and followed what motions work for a 'maintenance' pump.
Annnyway, all hepped up and yakkin', because FINALLY got out today for a short 6-mile skump, 1st time in over a month! Stoked!!!
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got me a flexy - foot position
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On 1/22/2006 eddie
wrote in from
United States
(64.132.nnn.nnn)
i picked up a used complete sector nine 33in flexy for $20. threw some randall 180's on it and now it finaly turns. cant figure out where my foot position should be. im not used to riding a board where the front truck is mounted at the tip. should i be standing more towards the middle where it bounces more, or towards the edges of the board?
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FOOOOT CRAAAMP!
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On 1/21/2006
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Wow, now i know what its all about,
that hurts,
i dont know if its the concave on the deck or the bushings too hard, i've changed them to some 94 duro, but they dont feel right, think they are more for freestyle trucks, might just put the funny hourglass ones back in,
but oooow,
how do you do what you lot do for as long as you do it, is this why you tend to have flat decks??
Yeah Peters, i want one just like that, in my back garden, sweet.
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How to Pump