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| Q&A: Slalom Pro Mike Maysey (2489 Posts)
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Set up for Corsa
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On 12/23/2003 Gary H.
wrote in from
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I sent you an e-mail with a deal on a complete set up!
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The ground is shakin'
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On 12/23/2003
mike maysey
wrote in from
(67.25.nnn.nnn)
pvd, doesn't truck 'rake' change when you move your foot fore or aft in relation to the mounts? It's not like a bike where you mostly always relate to it in the same way. In other words, you always sit your butt in the same spot and put your feet and hands in the same spots. Skateboards...well, you step here, you step there, you move your upper and lower body this way and that so the way I envision it, I always relate to my board differently.
Maybe I don't understand the physics behind trucks in general. Maybe I haven't spent enough time on your trucks to certainly know the difference!
Thanks for the wish UR13...wood IS good. At this point it's all I've been riding for slalom. I didn't do it because I wanted to BE someone. As a matter of fact, PD had me thinking about it when I first met him. He was talking about a wood deck....blah, blah, blah. I simply wanted to try it out and guess what, I like it. Is that so wrong? Maybe wood isn't the answer to everything, but you know what...it sure seems to be a good solution to the majority of course 'problems' I've been facing lately. I think riding a stiff deck could end up being a good training tool. I figure if I can pump this deck for speed, perhaps the composite decks will make me go even faster!?
Corsa, if I were you, I'd talk and read as much as I can before making a choice. Also, some boards are way more expensive than others. Check your options. There are lots of choices out there. Don't limit yourself.
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offsets
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On 12/23/2003 pvd
wrote in from
(64.172.nnn.nnn)
the reasons for offset trucks increasing traction have nothing to do with wheelbase. the two are wholy independent characteristics.
my trucks make far more traction than any other truck "avalable". the geometry has .500" of rake at any given angle. stock indys have about 1.000" and the average offset truck has about .375" to .500". aside from the different construction of trucks, it is these numbers that have the most significance.
start thinking about wheelpath. that will set you straight.
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wood
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On 12/22/2003
a "least coast bottom feeder"
wrote in from
(12.151.nnn.nnn)
Wood isn't the answer for everything, it isn't magical and it won't automatically make you Luca'esque. However, like everything, solid wood has it's place alongside foam/glass decks.
If you put the time into figuing it out you will find that;
Happy Holidays Mike....
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offsets, yet again
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On 12/20/2003
Geezer-X
wrote in from
(141.156.nnn.nnn)
Close, paul. The relationship betwee the centerline of the wheels, and the centerline of the axis of rotation of the hanger about the the kingpin and pivot is what should help with grip. The implication that you somehow exert more "leverage" is simply incorrect. If you put your skateboard on 4 tiny digital scales, like we do with karts and cars, you'd see that as long as you and your wheels atayed in the same relationship, your weight distribution wouldn't change. Turn your rear "offset" around backwards adn bolt it up through new holes so your wheelbase doesn't change, and you will still have exactly the same weight on each wheel. The thing you're describing, translational movement, the skewing of the centerline of the contact patches is whats bad for predictable grip. Aligning them with the center of rotation of the hanger helps, BUT..."built up" offsets, ie. links and axles adapted to conventional hangers are all pretty flexible. I've put every one of them into a test fixture, loaded them, and measured the deflection. If you're running really soft wheels, it probably won't make a difference, but extensive testing has proven that really straight axles in a stiff conventional hanger can provide more predictable grip. Trucks don't manufacture grip: On a given bit of pavement at a given downward pressure, and wheel can generate a given and quantifiable amount of traction. It's maintaining a parallel reletionship between your pairs of wheels that allows you to extract the greatest amount of the grip your wheels have to offer. In setting up karts, motorcycles, cars, bicycles for racing, the low laptimes come when the driver/rider is comfortable with the handling, and is thus able to go harder with confidence he's not going to get spat off. Straight axles beat a bendy offset, every day. Now, I have built an offset which is absolutely straight, has 8mm axles, and will accept everything from hyperstradas to Avilas or Gumballs, but it weighs a 'freakin ton. Radikals on an 8oz. composite deck? Makes you feel like Luca, if only for a second. Other things matter besides pure grip....
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Corsa-Decks
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On 12/20/2003 Pauliwog
wrote in from
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
Take a look at the "decks" forum, I put in an excessively wordy entry on my new Roe Unlimited, I weigh 165-168, you might find it useful (or tiring) to read. Later-Paul Howard
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deck choice
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On 12/20/2003
Aaron Morris
wrote in from
(68.96.nnn.nnn)
Corsa,
Definately get a Turner! Contact Peggy through turnersummerski.com, and she may have some boards in stock. They just went through the process of moving, and they need to get new boards.
Aaron
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Deck recomendations
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On 12/20/2003
Corsa
wrote in from
(205.188.nnn.nnn)
I am saving up for a top notch slalom deck. I am looking at Ick, Roe, Turner and Pocket pistol. I weigh 160 lbs and will likly be using seismic trucks. I want something with some flex but also has a very snappy response. Any recomendations from you guys who own a number of these decks? Take care,
Corsa
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Off-set Trucks
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On 12/19/2003 Pauliwog
wrote in from
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
Ok, so here's my rank amatuer opinion as to why they work. #1 they do move the axle closer to under the weight of the back foot, this does add traction to be sure.#2 If you envision yourself at mouse-eye level behind your board as you make a turn with a conventional truck, you would notice that the as the hanger pivots, it swings toward the direction of the turn (turn to the right, the hanger will swing to the right) thereby moving the inside wheel farther inside the turn radius and correspondingly, it has less pressure and contact with the riding surface, and put the majority of contact on the outside wheel, and lessening effective contact with the road overall. This is because the hanger is outside (in this case behind the pivot rotation line of the hanger in the baseplate). Now enter the TTC or offset hanger, as the hanger pivots, the axle line now simply rotates (not "swings")and the wheels remain roughly unchanged in terms of wheel placement relative to being inside or outside the centerline of the curving path of the turn and therefore both wheels are closer to having equal contact loads thereby increasing traction relative to a nonoffset and its releatively heavy loading of the outer wheel at the expense of loading on the inner wheel and thus an overall loss in traction. An older posting a long time ago mentioned an offset truck that moved the axle 1/4 inch or slightly more AHEAD of the kingpin. It was mentioned that this truck gave more traction than any other truck that rider had experienced and chewed up wheels badly as they barely slid. This I believe is due to both wheels being slightly shifted toward the "outside" of the turn (because now they are on the opposite side of the kingpin and thus "swing" to the outside of the turn opposite of a conventional non offset truck "swinging" to the inside of the turn). When you think of the angle of the vector of force coming from the rider which is produced by pumping and the centrifical force of traveling in an arc, all these factors fit this theory of changes in geometry. #3 Some have said the traction increase comes from the flexing of the "prongs/wings/whatever" in an offset - maybe but on this I'm skeptical because a conventional hanger with a bent axle does not grip as well as a conventional hanger with perfectly straight axle by my experience. Anyhow those are some passing thoughts. Adios - Paul Howard
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Wow, my Grammer stinkes
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On 12/19/2003
mike maysey
wrote in from
(67.24.nnn.nnn)
Sheesh, I meant to say there at the bottom...that we should find the most expensive material out there and throw it together in a skate deck. That would HAVE to be fastest right? If costs a lot it has to be the best. Remember I work at a bike shop where people come in and buy a $6500 Litespeed Vortex made of 6/4 titanium decked out with '04 Shimano Dura-Ace 10 speed...weighing in at 17 pounds with pedals and H2O cages.
Anyway.......now I go skate.....
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F1 vs. Skateboard
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On 12/19/2003
mike maysey
wrote in from
(67.24.nnn.nnn)
JG- I'm sorry to say, I don't see how F1 and skateboard are related in the slightest.
One's a car and one's not. ONE'S A SKATEBOARD. Next thing you know, motorcycle manufacturers will be looking at the snowboard industry for comparables.
Geezer- The go-cart thing seems close, but I still don't see the relation between skateboarding.
The offset truck, from what I see, effectivly moves the truck closer to the middle of your deck so that when you step on the deck in the usual spot, it falls ahead of the truck giving you additional leverage over it. It doesn't change any angles...nothing. The baseplate stays the same. The offset truck simply moves the axle closer to the center of the board.
Question: How do you know your trucks are perfectly aligned? If they are drilled by hand...even with a jig...they are slightly off...I bet 7 out of 10 times. This will make all the the precision trucks in the world useless. Not until the decks are made and drilled with the same precision will all worry be founded.
Exactly...how much does flex REALLY do when you stand on the trucks?
JG- I have a 'Turner' that PD made. It has a hair bit of camber, maybe 3/8". It was ultra stiff when I first got it, flexed hardly at all even when bouncing in the middle. I have to add something right here. (Don't you love it when someone steps on your board to feel the flex and they jump on the middle?) Anyway, as I've ridden the PD board, it's gotten a little softer. I stand on the bolts when I skate it, so it doesn't really flex much. It just needs a little longer tail, so I can move my rear truck out past where I stand so I can keep my rear wheels down better. I'm beginning to think it might be slightly too wide as well, but whatever. The next board I get will probably be longer and narrower.
Hamm- thanks for the 'opinion' thing. Besides, as I said before and continue to say, I'm just thinking outloud. I just wanted to spread my thoughts here since it seems like the 'slalom' site has become a bare knuckler.
Maybe we should be some of the most expensive materials made to build a skateboard out of. That would certainly make us faster. heheh
I'm outta here....
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GeezerX
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On 12/18/2003 Pauliwog
wrote in from
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
Hey! Are you Mr Monkeywrenchmachineworks? If so, I got my trucks back and they look really well done, I haven't ridden them yet, just waiting for a good dry day off so I can play with my new toys. Thanks - Paul Howard
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Luca
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On 12/18/2003 Pauliwog
wrote in from
(64.5.nnn.nnn)
It's not like I know the guy, but having met and talked to him a little at MB, he seemed friendly, humble, stoked to meet anyone let alone the fast guys, rather refreshing I must say. Watching his form and foot placement, I'm not convinced a flex board would help that much if at all. I thought it was pretty neat seeing someone like him arrive and break through the dominant paradigm. I don't see myself giving up my favorite Comet, Roe, Fibreflex,or Pocket Pistol decks for an oak plank, but I don't ride the same style he does either. Just some passing thoughts- Paul Howard.
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WTF Mate?
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On 12/18/2003
mike maysey
wrote in from
(67.25.nnn.nnn)
You guys are too much.
I'm using this board as a training tool and it happens to be fun to ride. Who knows if I'll show up to a race and ride it. I'd love to just so all you guys could roust me by telling me I'm trying to be Luca. Right now, everyone out there rides the same wood/foam/carbon/fiberglass boards that are all shaped the same. I'm trying to think a little differently and the board I saw at the Worlds was one I'd heard so much about from PD (when he went to Paris), seems to work. Maybe I should take a piece of kitchen drawer and bolt trucks to it.
TK- What's so bad about wood? What material are downhill boards made out of more often than not? Old technology? I don't know. Wood is natural. After I'm done with this board I can burn is and create warmpth in my house. Better not do that with your epoxy board. It's also not going to be sitting in some landfill for the next millenia like the fiberglass, carbon, foam creations that are the state-of-the-art. How's my hippie rant? I do live in SF not far from Haight/Ashbury. heheh
Hamm- The back truck is just in front of the kicker. The ball of my back foot rests in the area on the board where the kicker begins to go up. With this, I can push down on my heel in a heelside turn with my heel not having to travel as far as on a flat deck to give me the force I need to keep my back wheels on the ground. I skate with the raised heel style and the kicktail seems to suit me well. I'm thinking S-camber now...what's up wit dat? I think the key to this, isn't the material.
Maybe it's a design shake-up I'm thinking about. I think the key in slalom is traction which is given to this little wooden board by the placement of the rear truck. Right now the front truck on most modern boards is pulled back from the nose and the rear truck is right on the tail. I think the trucks should be pushed up so that your front foot is right over the widest part of the nose, on top of the truck bolts. The rear truck should be placed further up the tail so that the rear foot can be placed BEHIND the truck. Right now, my toes touch the outer truck bolts on the rear truck with my heel coming down at a point beyond the truck mounting. Make sense?
I never said it was the board that makes the guy fast. I never claimed that 'I' would make some drastic change in equipment. Hell, I hope by now everyone knows it's ability over equipment in the speed equation. I'm just experimenting and talking about it here. What kind of experimenting are others doing out there? I'm curious.
Sheesh, I'm brainstorming. I'd like to get on something with a little flex, no torsional flex that works with 'me.' I look at what everyone else is doing and think, is that really the best? Everyone seems to be doing the SAME thing in slalom board manufacturing. They all make the same low camber, stiff board. I'm trying to think out loud.
I'm not so sure all this 'precision' equipment is so great. I don't care how precise the trucks are or the material in the deck...if the truck holes are drilled a little bit off...c'mon, how precise is that? If your wheels are slightly more coned on one side of your board, wouldn't that be imprecise? If the bushings in your trucks are slightly harder on one side that the other, how precise is that?
There are so many variables...how can you control for all these factors?
I'm just a skater who tried to skate Berkeley skatepark today with my buddy Dave. The damn thing is closed due to ground water contamination from the soccer field fertilizer. All I wanted to do was carve some round wall.
Don't think too much....wait, what am I saying....hehe
Late
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Gilmour
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On 12/18/2003 Hamm
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
how bout this? maybe they're giving you "best of's" because you said your not going to post anymore.
(Remember.. Ncdsa.com is not responsible for the opinions of its Q&A editors!)
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defamation
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On 12/18/2003 Hamm
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
None of it makes any sense to me! I'm just poking fun.
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Some of them want to be Abused
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On 12/18/2003 jgoihlnmour
wrote in from
(207.172.nnn.nnn)
oops I gave myself an undeserved abuse by accident- perhaps we should have that one corrected-
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I've been defamed!
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On 12/18/2003 John Gilmour
wrote in from
(207.172.nnn.nnn)
And for making defaming me Hamm- I'm giving you an abuse- kind of like getting a rusted bearing in your socking.
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Post of Christmas Ghast
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On 12/18/2003
tiny tim
wrote in from
(207.172.nnn.nnn)
Hamm- what sense would it make not make reference to post # 150589? Of course I'll post info- but when the original post goes - so goes the info and the effort spent typing it. If no reference is made and it disappears- who would ever know it was there? As soon as that post goes- I stop posting information on NCDSA.com until they change their editing system.
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JG
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On 12/18/2003 Hamm
wrote in from
(199.41.nnn.nnn)
how many times will JG post, "this is the last time I post"???
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it's bending downwards
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On 12/18/2003 JG
wrote in from
(207.172.nnn.nnn)
refering back to post 150589 I was wondering if anyone had some of thesame thoughts on Camber? Mike M. You had a zero camber Turner- could you elaborate on the ride?
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Exactly
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On 12/18/2003 Geezer-X
wrote in from
(149.2.nnn.nnn)
Right. All weight on a kart is unsprung weight. That's why racing karts leaves you feeling like you'd gone 7 rounds with Hector Camacho. I'm not sure how you spell "Hector Camacho", BTW. Anyway, my point is that on a skate board, your unsprung weight is like 5 ponds, and your sprung weight is your body weight. As for flex, most people stand pretty freakin' close to over the trucks anyway.
And...
I gave you a best of, just to mess with you.
And...I'm charging interest starting....Uhhhh....NOW!
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The old flex and suspension thing
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On 12/18/2003
Geezer-X
wrote in from
(149.2.nnn.nnn)
On a skateboard there is suspension. It's called "Knees". The Idea on a car is to keep the unsprung weight (wheels, tires, hubs, brakes, and about half the weight of the control arms, springs, shocks and sway bars)as low as possible, so that the whole mess can follow the undulations of the racing surface as well as possible. I've spent a lot of time and money racing motorcycles (and for that matter r/c cars) with fully adjustable suspension (rebound and compression damping, spring rate and preload)and cars with partially adjustable suspension (overall damping, spring preload)as well as 4 stroke and 2 stroke sprint karts with NO suspension. The karts don't need suspension because the vehicle weighs the same or less than the payload.
The greater the disparity between the weights of the sprung and unsprung components of a vehicle, the more important suspension becomes.
SCCA showroom stock racing car. Unsprung/300lbs, sprung/2200lbs.
600 superstock race bike. unsprung/75lbs, sprung/500lbs.
Yamaha 100cc direct drive sprint kart (no suspension)/140lbs, minimum class weight 360lbs, ie driver and ballast to equal <220lbs.
skateboard 5lbs/rider 160-240lbs typically.
The simple fact that I weigh 40 times as much as my skateboard negates the benefit of "suspension". No if you want to consider the benefit of flex from an unloading-loading standpoint as a source of power, I'm all ears. With regard to flex affecting traction, maintaining a tight parallel relationship between your wheels has more affect than ANYTHING else on grip. Period. I mean for a given set of conditions. On a cold day, there's less grip, but trucks with stiff, perfectly straight axles will let you exploit as much of the grip as possible.
A rigid board does not absorb force. If you push down, there is a direct mechanical connection to to ground through the contact patches of your wheels. The reason PVDs work so well is the direct mechanical pivot. The contact patches are tied to the deck. The bushings are springs for RTC, not isolators. I've been riding a very low camber super stiff Roe Unlimited with PVD R2s, and I have almost too much grip. I can run 90a avalons on pretty much anything, although I don't really routinely run on crap surfaces.
Perfectly aligned wheels, and a direct connection with the riding surface so the rider can really feel what's happening at the contact patch is what you're looking for in virtually kind of racing which involves wheels and pavement. The issues of spring and damping only crop up when the vehicle weighs more than the driver.
Bear this in mind. The absolute track record at many venues is held by a kart, not a formula car or superbike. No suspension except chassis and tire flex.
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self abuse
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On 12/18/2003 george g.
wrote in from
(159.87.nnn.nnn)
See, I alrady gave you a best of to counter-act the abuse. Great post. Merry Chrismas to all the East, West and everywhere slalom skaters. I hope you get the Chlorine Video for Christmas it rocks!
I especially enjoyed your post about pavement and agregate/composition.
Self abuse awareness week starts in Feb of next year. I got to go to another place, SSA, Slalom Skaters Anonymous, Hi my name is George, and I am a Slalom skater.......
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huh?
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On 12/18/2003 John Gilmour
wrote in from
(207.172.nnn.nnn)
to help get it started I posted the first abuse vote.
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