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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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Paradigm Shift
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On 12/2/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
For those just joining the discussion, we're talking about two different things here:
1. How loose or tight your trucks are (front vs rear).
2. How much or how little steering your trucks provide, given the same amout of lean (front vs rear).
For as long as skateboarding has existed, 99.99% of all boards haved feature the same truck on the front of the board as the back. It makes sense from a production standpoint - make one truck instead of two. Unlike cars and bikes that provide no rear steering, we've all become used to the way a skateboard turns. In an effort to avoid the unstable feeling of a board that steers like a forklift, we've typically relied on two ways of "taming" the amount of rear steer. We've narrowed the width of the deck in the rear to avoid over-leveraging by the rear foot. This was probably more of a "surfboard shape carryover" then it was a performance feature, but it works out nicely for us. We've also tightend the rear truck more than the front. One nice aspect of traditional truck design is that tightening the truck smashes down the bushings which changes the truck's geometry - it reduces the steering angle. Somewhat unwittingly, we've limped along using the same trucks (front and rear) quite well, and have accepted the limitations.
The seventies was a great time for skaters to try new setups. Competition helped motivate skaters to develop and modify equipment to get better performance. The wedge pad was a simple solution for changing a truck's steering. It's a great invention, but the skateboarding community has suffered to a certain extent because of it. Most truck vendors still only make one geometry per style, and we're litearally forced to use wedge pads or bend our boards to make them turn differently. In a few cases where I want my board to be symmetrical front and back, having the same truck makes perfect sense. In all other cases it's a nightmare. Wedging can make the front higher of lower than the back. Wedging can make you deck unnecessarily higher off the ground. Mounting hardware has to come in 2, 3, or even 4 different lengths on a single board. What we really want is to have a number of different geomtries offered in the basepaltes, all of which put the axles at the same ride height. I've been designing, fabricating and riding my own prototype trucks this way, and it's been like a breath of fresh air.
Assuming that in the "not too distant" future, truck systems like this will be available, I think that you'll find that RARELY will you set up your boards with the same baseplate front and rear. Even if the front and rear trucks are tensioned the same, they will steer differently. For pure speed in tight/medium slalom racing and in pumping uphill, a quick turning and loose front with a slow turning and tight rear works best for me. I haven't tried this for any real long distances, but I'd have to guess that a bit more rear steering may be useful when the wheelbase gets longer and/or the wheels get softer or taller.
In any event, I'm glad that there is a paradigm shift in how we're addressing the two distinct ends of the board. Each end deserves a different truck, and I aim to give them one.
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loose + tight its arrrright
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On 12/1/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
For powering turns, picking up speed, and climbing inclines the back truck is my primary source of power and the front tells the deck where to go. After much trial and error on different setups I find the basic tenets of my slalom decks are identical or similar to my LDP deck, just scaled up a notch or two. Loose but responsive front, tight + stiff rear, camber farther up the board and a lowered 'pocket' for the back foot. My Roe cutaway S-camber 28" for TS/hybrid, and Longboard Larry 43" for LDP have a very similar profile:
On slight declines or perfect flats, when speed is nearly maxed out, I do find it effortless to ride the nose and pump a loose front truck, like a top-end 'cruising' gear. This high-end gear is interesting in that sometimes I'm teetering on two front wheels and just one in the back -- careful not to pearl the deck on asphalt!! Then when I need more control, or when speed decreases, one foot remains over the front truck while the back foot slides farther back to power the board forward again.
Airin, your HotSpots are gonna rock -- 77a is a versatile duro. I normally run those real soft 72a wheels on my LDP decks when I don't know beforehand what the trail conditions are going to be like, or only mount as back wheels for traction. But if I'm sure that most of the trail is butter smooth then I'd even be tempted toward 82a or 86a to reduce rolling resistance...
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loose front trucks
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On 12/1/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I dunno Al, though I'm not very experienced at LD pumping I always run my front trucks much looser than the rear. For that matter I have pretty well always longboarded with this method. And of course in slalom it is a no brainer to have the front looser than the rear.
I find that I really 'wiggle' the front trucks side to side to get going when I am pumping and then I rock back and forth in a nice rhythmical pattern once I'm going and want to keep up the momentum. For this I rely upon very loose trucks in the front. As for the rear, what I expect of those trucks is for them to track nicely and not interfere with the front grabbing and pulling me along.
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LD Pump odds n ends
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On 12/1/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Erin, since Chris prefers to pump using the rear trucks as the driving force of the board his analysis of turning radius and the need to tighten the rear trucks makes sense. However, for riders who prefer to use the front trucks to generate the speed, like Peters and myself, exactly the opposite needs to be done... the front trucks need to be tightened and the rear loosened. As stated before, I use the rear trucks mostly for stabilizing the board, and then, sometimes when I'm real tired. In this sense, a huge benefit of using the forward trucks in LD is that you always have rear trucks as a back up when you start to lose momentum on a long ride. Sometimes I slow down almost to a stop, while drinking water etc..and then use the back trucks as sort of a first gear to get me going again. I am somewhat of a purist in this sense because I never like to kick once I start pumping..unless there are hills. However, I do ride and adjust my trucks like Chris, using the back trucks for propulsion when I want to sprint or race in-liners as it seems that the back trucks give more thrust over short distances. Anyway, I appreciated Chris' accurate description of the essencial mechanism and means that velocity is achieved in pumping. It's actually a bit difficult to understand, and somewhat like trying to describe the mechanics of a moving snake, or a swimming fish. Anyway it was a good description..probably the best I've read yet! So, I think the mechanism for generating the power in pumping is as he described...it only needs to be decided which set of trucks you want to use as your primary source of power...and for what purpose. For me, fronts for LD riding and backs or both trucks adjusted equally, for sprints and other shorter distances under 1 k. If Peters would care to comment, I'd like to hear his opinion on this?
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another step closer
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On 11/30/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, I just won some 77a Hot Spots on ebay. They are going on my recently purchased 150 R2's and are headed for my yet to be built LBL pumping deck.
I was torn between the 74a wheels and 77a....it seems that soft is the way to go in terms of a slalom wheel for the LD skates. Hopefully 77 will be soft enough.
So with some bones reds and mounted on my cruiser board for the time being I'll test these wheels out on a familar route to see how they compare to the 81a/78a Grippins I have been running. I'll keep you posted...just in case anyone's interested in the slow emergence of a designated pumping set up. ;-)
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60/30 done!
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Thanks for the advice Chris. I had the front of my R2's wedged but just dewedged the rear as you suggested. Now here's hoping it doesn't snow tonight so that I can test drive this set up tomorrow.
When you mentioned 'narrowing' the hangers on the 150 R2's are you talking going to Geezer with the trucks? Or is there some other way?
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Sixty Thirty
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On 11/28/2005
Chris Chaput
wrote in from
United States
(66.116.nnn.nnn)
If you have a couple of trucks with 45 degree geometry and a couple of 15 degree wedge pads, try wedging 15 degrees INTO the front truck and 15 degrees OUT OF the rear truck. This will give you a 60 degree front and a 30 degree rear. Use narrowish hangers and high rebound bushings. Firm, but high rebound and high traction wheels. Keep the front loose and the back tight.
With a setup like this you will find that you don't waste a lot of energy by having too much rear steering. You are able to really "drive" off the back truck by pushing back away from the outside of each turn. If you have too much rear-steering, the board may turn easily at slower speeds but not translate your energy into an efficient pump. With too much rear-steering, the back end steers toward the outside of the turn, rather than directing the pump in a more forward direction.
If you have Randal R-II 150's, try narrowing the hangers and using 10 degree wedges to get to 60/40 geometry. Once you feel the drive off of your back truck, you'll never want to go 50/50 again.
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one step closer
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Well I'm one step closer to getting my first specialized long distance pumping rig. Today my 150 R2's arrived in the mail complete with upgraded 3 inch grade 8 kingpins, inverted! (Thanks to Jamie of McPhails in Waterloo Ontario!) I put some green stims on the bottom and a blue Khiro bottom barrel bushing on top. As well I added a 'bushing toe stop'. Mounted on my 44 inch LBL cruising board that I usually pump with 180 R2's, I took off for a test ride.
The narrower trucks are much easier to get going. There is something to this idea of 'gears' depending on the truck set up, and probably wheelbase as well. Going from 180's to 150's was definitely like switching to a smaller sprocket.
So next I'm lining up some Hot Spots as my main pumping wheels. And then the icing on my cake, a custom LBL pumping deck. Larry is still working on ideas that I pepper him in my quest for a deck which will suit my riding style and terrain. Its not ALL about gear (....it's not?!) but it sure is fun gathering the parts that should facilitate improving my pumping technique.
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footblocks other options
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On 11/28/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
One footstop that works well is simply a PPS foam wedge pad mounted at the nose, with the fat edge pointing toward the foot. Stryker has his slalom Axe set up this way. He even takes a dremel to it to match the shape of his foot/shoe exactly. A few guys use the TNRs, they're excellent of course. Pauliwog pokes a bolt up through the bottom of the deck at both tail and nose, I rode his setup down at WSU and could crank through 4.5' center spaced cones!
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TNR link
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Here's the link to the TNR foot block in case you're interested:
http://www.tnrdesigns.com/skateboards.htm
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foot block
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On 11/28/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
In slalom the foot block or toe stop is often used so that the skater doesn't slide too far up the nose while pumping through a tight course. I have a TNR foot block on one slalom board and more 'homemade' bushing toe stops on the others. I was wondering how one of these would be on a long distance deck. Has anyone experimented with footblocks for applications other than slalom?
I'm going to give the TNR a try on my up and coming LBL designated long distance pumping deck. Come to think of it, maybe I'll start experimenting with this right now on one of my cruiser boards.
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pump family
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On 11/28/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Airin, you're an amazingly generous host, and the buzz is still resonating from our great pump cruise around Stanley Park. Thank you! Meeting up was a huge highlight for us all. A slalom fest up there next year would be great.
By the way you and Eric are far too complimentary - I'm always jonesin' to get out and learn new things from each other on each ride, the discoveries are endless. And thanks for the comment on the quiver Eric, many experimental decks have come and gone, I'll try to add some of those in the near future.
Notice when Eric chanted 'pump master', Dan The Man appeared from the fog! Dan - I think all my links are updated now, please PDF me! My favorite quote: "...A note of caution - You may find that pumping becomes addictive. It is a truly magical feeling to propel yourself indefinitely, without ever touching the ground or lifting any of your wheels..." -Amen.
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Dan's pumping article....
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On 11/27/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Dan I have posted a link to your old article on silverfish to help those
learning to pump. It's a great resource.
It would be great if you could e mail me the new article and info on
how to subscribe to the new magazine!
Thanks - Eric
ronin391@yahoo.com
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pumping board
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On 11/27/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ben, I'm not sure that there really is a definitive pumping board out there yet. The few serious long distance skaters that are out there are still experimenting quite a bit with set ups.
Not that I have loads of experience in this skate discipline myself but I can make a few suggestions. If you are thinking pumping short distances only, like 1/2 a kilometre stretchs for practice that will transfer to slalom, for example, then a slalom board will probably be appropriate. But if you are thinking of going longer distances like 5 - 10 km's at a go then it seems like a board with a wheelbase between 28 - 32 inches and trucks mounted about 4 - 5 inches from the nose on a deck with slight or no flex and very little concave and no wheel cut outs would be the board to look for. As for wheels and trucks...James Peters has some good suggestions in a recent post below.
hope that helps.
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board
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On 11/27/2005
Ben
wrote in from
United States
(24.130.nnn.nnn)
can anyone reccomend a complete beginner board for pumping, or better yet if someone has a used one they would like to sell
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Pumping; Updated
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On 11/27/2005
K-Rimes
wrote in from
Canada
(24.87.nnn.nnn)
I'd love a PDF. My email is up there.
Thanks!
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Pumping How-To article
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On 11/27/2005
Dan Gesmer / Seismic
wrote in from
United States
(71.211.nnn.nnn)
I recently updated and re-edited my 1989 "how-to" on pumping. It's printed with photos and illustrations in issue #3 of Naphte, the new longboard magazine out of Montreal. (I'm serving as the magazine's Senior Editor, too.)
I can email a PDF version of the article to anyone who's interested. And anyone who has the old 1989 article posted on their websites, it would be cool if you'd update to the new version.
Peace,
Dan
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Jealous
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On 11/26/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Airin I'm jealous that you got to skate with the pump master.
Did you try his set up?
Mr. Peters I saw your quiver on your site and it is VERY impressive.
And thanks for the advice and tips below. I will heed your advice
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Half Marathon
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On 11/26/2005
Pete
wrote in from
United States
(24.152.nnn.nnn)
Hey all-
Haven't checked the board in a while. I ride a 44" G&S Fiber Flex with stock 150 randalls. I take the risers off completely, after the 1/4" ones didn't work out. I can pump the full 2 3/4 miles from Crystal Pier to South Mission jetty, but usually use alternating kicks to keep up a high rate of speed. As far as I'm concerned, a longer board is the only way to go. The fiber flex is stable for skogging, but flexible enough to crank down on for pumping.
Anyone else get rid of risers altogether? Still reading the posts-
Pete
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skate family
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On 11/26/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
I just returned from a fantastic skate with James Peters! We scored a windy, sunny warm Fall day here in Vancouver and delighted in the smooth pavement of the seawall bike path around Stanley Park. Both skating custom LBL decks, we just had a blast pumping and carving the 10km 'paved wave'.
It was so great to get together with a long distance skate guru like James. For me, I learned more about long distance pumping in an hour with James than in 10 months on the net...lol.
As well it is so wonderful to spend time with other like minded skaters. We are a fantastic family and its great when we get to meet and enjoy one another's company. James thanks so much for your warmth and generosity. And to the rest of you, I can hardly wait until we meet and skate....my back yard or yours?
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skate
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On 11/25/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Hey James thanks for posting that link .. always good to see some interesting pumping locations. And yeah Munchh, probably it was way more useful to actually 'see' the pumping in action as opposed to just 'hearing' about it, eh? Good luck on your medical project btw ....speedy recovery to you.
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vanc seawall...
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On 11/25/2005 peters
wrote in from
Canada
(24.82.nnn.nnn)
erin, thank you for the warm Vancouver welcome - there's more sushi here than there is coffee in seattle!! stanley park seawall trail (9k) looks sweet...just hope it dries up here!
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Peters
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On 11/25/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Looks real fun and now i understand the front foot over the truck thing?
Nothing like working up a sweat in the cold!
Although i'm gonna give the velodrome a call and it is undercover, looks like i'm gonna be out of things for a couple of weeks, the hospital finally called with a date for the synus opp i've been waiting 9 months for, its the 29th, so its all happening!!
Its a new twist and cant wait to give it a go.
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vel vid
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On 11/24/2005 peters
wrote in from
Canada
(24.82.nnn.nnn)
hey munchh, here's a short vid from over a year ago when a buddy and I were testing out the local velodrome, before it was resurfaced. its pretty jerky skating as we (obviously) weren't going for style points, just trying to get and stay high up on the steeps... i think we'd do alot better now given our setups are better dialed. you asked about wheel duro and shape, this place is so smooth I'd probably use something like 81a--86a Avalons or Hot Spots on a 28" wheelbase deck.
http://home.comcast.net/~jampet99/images/circuitLongboarding.wmv
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Californa pumping
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On 11/24/2005
airin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Oh yeah, wouldn't take much to tempt us down to Californa for some friendly pumping competitions.
James, welcome to Vancouver...don't worry if it rains too much for skating we'll make it up to you in sushi!
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How to Pump