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| Long Distance Pumping (LDP) (1492 Posts)
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more quiver chat
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric thanks for sharing your quiver history and contents. I see that you are also selective and discriminating in your board choices. And of course by now you are famous on some forums for your gorgeous red Swift! LOL
Currently I am also running only six boards with a seventh ( my Landy wood/carbon fibre DH ) dismantled and moth balled in the atic.
I have a Roe for TS and another for GS and I have a Fatboy that can do just about any kind of slalom.
In the longboard category I have the recently aquired Vice-grip and my two much loved LBL's. The first LBL I got was a 60 inch cruiser that I use to skate the seawall bike paths with my pooch, the skate-Pom named (rather fittingly, I thought) "Jamie". This dawg would rather got for a skate than any other outting beside food shopping. He loves to jog along while I cruise and when he tires...about 8 km's into the skate, he takes a free ride nestled comfortably in my arms. It matters not to him whether I push or pump, either way he just lies there like a prince enjoying the view.
The other LBL is an all round commuting board, the Otter. It is 44 inchs and surprising easy to pump in spite of its 180mm R2's. I am running sweet pink 72 mm/78a powerballs on this board which nicely show off the pink/red hibiscus patterned hawaiian fabric on the deck.
The LBL's section of my quiver will be growing soon but I can't let too many cats out of the bag right now......
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My quiver....
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On 12/13/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin I was a skater in the seventies and a little in the eighties.
But I retired and gave my much younger brother my uncle wiggley and my powell peralta.
But after seeing the "Dogtown and Z Boys" documentary I felt very nostalgic and
wanted to recreate that part of my childhood. The documentary showed an old bahne and that got me interested. I bought a Bahne Black Hill slalom board.
But it didn't turn tight like I thought it would. It had camber and a seismic front truck, a traker rt rear truck and cambria wheels. I thought it would be an awesome pumper. But it never felt stable or turny enough for me.
So I got an Original 43 with S6 trucks. Much more room and more stability.
And the ability to turn sharply to avoid people and obstacles. The spring loaded trucks (nothing like seismics) have so much return energy that pumping that big board came naturally. It was the first one I could pump for any distance or up small hills or whatever. Then I got an Original 47, which is much flexier than the 43 and is a great carver, cruiser, pumper.
I traded my Bahne to SteveAZ for a 35" cambered kicktail board.
My next board was my Curve/Subsonic Swift 40 which is a multi purpose cruiser,
carver, bomber, skogger, garage racer. Recently I added a 34" and a 38" kicktailed park boards to use for sliding, parks and ramps.
My next board is to be a medium distance pumper/skogger that can also be used
to run the trap.
That's it. Only six boards so far, but growing.
What boards do you have and how/why did you aquire them. What is each used for, ect?
James you did an excellent description of your quiver and equipment choices on your site. I like how you have pumping decks, pushing decks, ect.
I guess the trap is more of a short distance sprint. The top posted times are all by slalom guys pumping a distance of 44 feet and averaging in the 18 mph range. Chaput pumped 176 feet and also averaged in the 18 mph range.
But he pushed 176 feet at an average speed in the 19mph range.
Prior to that (and still by most) it was thought that pumping would be faster than pushing. Pushing was considered a low gear with pumping being a higher gear. But what of chaput's times?
Which is faster over 176 feet pumping or pushing?
And what set up would any of you use to cross 176 feet (any humanpowered on a skateboard way) in the quickest possible time?
This was discussed a year ago but I think the sphere of knowledge on pumping and push racing has been expanded greatly since then.
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quiver talk
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On 12/13/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric there isn't that much to see in terms of my quiver as I keep my rack of boards to seven or eight carefully set up rides. However to reach its current state, my board room has seen over 15 decks come and go!
A few years ago I found myself buying and trying various differentlongboards that were all very well constructed and designed. But without fail the boards just seemed to be too stiff for my light weight. I kept thinking there had to be a ride out there that had some life to it, some movement under my feet as I carved and cruised. Then I discovered LBL and there was no looking back.
When I set foot on my first LBL deck I finally felt the response and life under my Vans that I had been dreaming of. I started selling off other boards and spending more time with LongboardLarry....lol Now my two LBL boards are my most skated boards and there are a few more projects under way in Larry's shop that will add a little more diversity to my small, select quiver.
As for slalom, I did not want to go through the same buying and selling to find the right boards for my style and thankfully, given that slalom board builders are more familiar with customizing for weight and riding style, I have been able to carefully select three different boards for that discipline.
Now long distance pumping has opened the door to some more researching and experimenting. The Vice is a part of the experiment to find a suitable LDP board but I suspect that eventually a custom LBL will win the spot in my quiver for a long distance pumper.
In a few months when the winter of dreaming, designing, working with builders and receiving packages in the mail comes to an end and the skate/slalom season begins in earnest I'll post some pictures of my "perfect quiver".
As for you Eric, what is your collection like and how did you arrive at it? I love to hear about skater's rides and their methods for selecting boards.
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getting Trapped in the Vice Grip...
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On 12/13/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin - thank you for the pics of your vice grip! It looks like an awesome pumper to me. The R2 150's and Grippins seem perfect on there.
I'm sure carver cx's and hot spots would be sweet, too.
I'd very curious to see a current quiver pic of yours Erin, last time I saw your quiver was over a year ago and I think you've added quite a bit since then. Are you still waiting for a slalom deck from Roe?
Mr. Peters - thanks for all the set up tips! I envy your quiver. I'm working on a similar idea; a short distance pumper/slalom set up, a middle/long distance skumper/skumper/skogger and a pushing/skogging/rain set up among others.
As for the trap if you scroll back through the old posts here in the pumping forum, you'll come to Chaput's posts about the trap, his times and strategies.
You'll also find the discussion that lead to the idea of the trap that took place between steve from AZ, Chris Yandall and Chris Chaput. I think you'll find it interesting. - Eric
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sprints & distance
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On 12/13/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Hey Al, your time's pretty decent when you break it down to the 176-foot Trap distance - 11.27sec? per rough calculation. Plus the 25+" wheelbase takes longer for acceleration and I've no idea how the sidewinders work for speed, but I'd gamble that for these sprints, a shorter wheelbase and tighter trucks might knock your time down another notch. Whereas on long distance IMHO its better to have that 25+ wheelbase, a longer stride that matches the longer course. Then its a game of stamina, keeping as high kph as possible over a long duration. Not sure about urethane grooves except for benefits on wet pavement, but assuming the course is smooth, notice a lot of the top dogs in Cyber/Trap are running 84a+ durometers. I run 86f/82r most the time.
The tricky part about doing this worldwide is that courses may vary with slight incline/decline, and variance increases with distance. That's why until marathons are run in a controlled velodrome-type track, the Trap or Cyber run in both directions are the best way to assure our times are true. The 26-milers we've run over the past few years in Seattle are timed professionally -- but in a pure racing vein, I think they'd have to be challenged on the same course, given the terrain is not 100% flat, even if we consider decline cancels out incline, or some such equation. Also, there's a few traffic lights on that course unfortunately, which are not controlled for the event, so that can add another 2 minutes or so cumulatively. Not good for a "pure" distance time. Still, for 26 miles I'd choose the scenery of the great outdoors to 100 laps in a velodrome!
Map out the 'specs', then hit the Trap! And try out Cyber if you have some cones, just beware the slalom addiction...
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Sprints
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On 12/13/2005 Al Williams
wrote in from
Dominican Republic
(66.98.nnn.nnn)
Hi everyone! I'm glad the posts have turned somewhat towards sprinting because I just clocked some speeds last Sunday and wanted to see if they were fast or not. Actually, I'm just getting back into shape right now and so I think they might be somewhat slow, in comparison to folks who are pumping hard everyday. I clocked 200 meters at 43.6 secs. In the past I think I've done this in 42secs. 200 meters is = to 656 ft. For the 2k I pumped it in about 9mins 30secs, but I wasn't going all out. I was using a 43" longboard, 25" WB, Bones reds and customized Sidewinders with Indy 101 hangers. I think now if I lengthen the WB, use better bearings, a 75mm wheel with harder durometer, and a 7" hanger, I should be able to speed things up. Any other ideas? What about grooving the urethane in the wheels to get more push?
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looking for the 'trap'
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On 12/12/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, you guys have got me pretty keen on practicing the trap. I'm going to search around for just the right area of pavement to measure out this course. I can't imagine coming close to the speeds the are being discussed here but it will be fun to just see if I can improve my personal bests over time.
I hope to experiment with both my slalom boards and my recently set up LDP board. Should be fun!
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trap and cyber
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On 12/12/2005 peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Trapmaster Steve, great to hear from you. I was just replying to Eric on SF about the Trap so I'm going to recycle a bit, and pose my opinion on this. I'm sure Chaput's got a game plan for this one...would like to hear it!
Apparently Chaput has an unofficial top speed on the 176 footer. If I understand the race specs correctly, I would expect the fastest mph times to come from the shortest distance of 44 feet, since its an average time over the distance, with an unlimited push start distance -- implying that a racer is going to reach an apex at some point during that short distance. Clocking an average 18+ mph for 44 feet is incredible, so maintaining that up for 88 or 176 feet would be even more phenomenal.
My theory is that you'd max out your push speed on the entrance (unlimited), then for the duration of the timed area, gain just a little more acceleration on the pump. Over marathon distances, I've found that pushing is only more efficient for inclines.
I think Cyber is a good preliminary indication of where you might "fit" in this game, and I'm still just breaking the 10-second barrier. The Trap and Cyber are really a sprint, whereas LDP is an exercise in endurance. But I like to round it out and hit sprints as hard as possible as well. As with Cyber I'm convinced the most important thing is getting your GROOVE on right from the starting box, and picking up that rhythm all the way through the course. That's something I've learned from watching Dong and Jackman in action here in practice and events. Lucky to have that kind of inspiration and kick in the @ss on a weekly/monthly basis!
One thing I'd like to suggest for the Trap Steve, is that whenever in doubt on the flatness of the course, you could add to the specs that it must be run in both directions and averaged (as in Cyber) particularly important on the 176-footer, to ensure accurate times and top speed measurement.
Given this is something we can do in a DRY parking garage in the Northwest, I'm gonna go hit it!
And Munchh, thank you for the comments on the site, its great to see people 'skumping' all round the world. ...and that's a damn impressive quiver you've built up as well!
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Running "The Trap"
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On 12/12/2005
Steve "TrapMaster" in AZ
wrote in from
United States
(192.175.nnn.nnn)
Peters, Munchh, Erin, Airin, Eric and everyone considering running The Trap...
DO IT!
I'm sorry that as originator of this little contest that I haven't been more involved. Becoming a Dad for the first time will do that to you...unless you're Kenny and then you win a W.C. I do have some suggestions when going for sheer speed under ANY means of personal, natural locomotion:
-Keep both the Trap area and the approach FLAT. You can hit un-even terrain after the trap exit point.
-PLEASE, PLEASE run either the 88' or 176' course! The 44' course is just too short to get accurate times, and will be phased-out in future contests.
-Wear you saftey gear! It's amazing what happens when that R.wheel runs over your push foot at speed.
-Post your times on The Trap and comment here on the Pumping forum. Remember, The Trap is Pump, Skog, Push or any combo thereof...
How fast can you go? Let us Know!
-=S=-
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Peters pipper pumping Peters!
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On 12/10/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Man!
Just been looking at your site, it all makes alot more sence now, but 12 miles man, thats dedication.
You got alot of cool info on there, the other vids make things alot clearer, the elbow thing is that a better motion than the slalom movement, its like your rollin along, cant wait to give it a go and as soon as my brother in-law is off crutches he wants me to set up one of his decks so he can give it a go, so looks like i'll have some company.
Nice one, scumpings going global.
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revenge & CX
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On 12/9/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
Erin, first impression on the Revenges... amazing for cranking downhill carves!! The trucks have a very positive stopping point at max carve, minimal need for riser.
Although for LDP, initial instinct is to stay with CX's. Revenges' turning action pivots inward toward the deck - like an Original truck - whereas Carvers and RTR's swivel on a plane more horizontal with the deck, allowing an easier lateral pump. This is really preliminary impression though, luckily with the dry weather I get to test 'em out at the Velodrome tomorrow! If they still feel weird for flatlanding, I'll mount the back+front identical for a pure carving deck, they seem perfectly suited for that.
Eric, would like to discuss the Trap...gotta get some setups dialed tonite and will be doing some fast flatlanding tomorrow, so will have more to chew on soon. Sounds like you've got great ideas on the right setup! My medium distance board is more like Erin's Vice... its a LibTech 41" with 25" wheelbase and real stiff, excellent hill climber but the stiffness gets tiring when you're going past the 5-mile marker.
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LDP trucks - the new kid on the block
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On 12/9/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Always some other component to wonder about. Good thing that skateboards aren't as complicated as, say, car engines....lol
So trucks are on the radar now. James has got me thinking I'd like to try his top LDP truck of 2005, the Carver CX. But then along comes the Revenge trucks getting good reviews from skaters but the new kid on the block when it comes to LDP.
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hmmm?
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Has anyone got info on when wedging and making nose and tail diffrent hights, is it best to have deck leaning towards the nose, tail or flat???
Whats the best for a good pump???
Cheers, Steve.
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Erin
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On 12/9/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.140.nnn.nnn)
Yeah, they could have told me how uncomfotable it was gonna be after, gits!
I've been flipping the hangers on my RII's, for longer more stable carves for a while, befroe i started wedging i did just the rear truck, but im, gonna try wedging now, gives me somthing to do while i'm stuck in. Do you upgrade the bushings? I've never changed the yellows on the RII's as my local shop holds mainly short board equipment so i did try some indy's, but just used them as top bushings as all 4 come as cones, but they are a good urethane, they also do 'deluxe carpbuster tackand supply supercrush' which i've been using a while, cant find Khiro's over here.
Anyhow, i've always been a little put off by loose trucks, my mate runs his RII's at a rattle, which scared the life out of me when i had a go, dont know whether its my 13.5st 5'8" frame but i like to feel the resistance in the bushings one edge to the other, but with a good return, need to find some new rubbers i think.
P.S. Think you would like my 36 cruiser shape for pumping?
Click here for link
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today's Vice-grip skate
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
This time of year in Vancouver you have to sneak in a skate the moment the pavement shows the slightest hint of drying. Today was one of those days. By 10 am I was out on the seawall giving the Vice a workout. The board behaved quite politely.
If I was to get really picky I'd say I would still like a little more room at the nose. But with the wheelbase already at 26 inches ( I measured it to be sure and was surprised to find it less than I had first estimated ) I wouldn't really want to move the trucks back much more. In fact the wb felt really quite good.
The more stiff deck is definitely an advantage as it seems more power can be transfered to the board with stiffer flex. That said, a bit of 'pop', as James describes it, is a welcome feature in a LDP deck as well. For that, this deck could do to have just a touch more flex for my body weight.
And all in all it is good to have some width under those pumping pistons. It wouldn't do to go much more narrow than the Vice for LDP applications. I felt Jame's LBL deck, for example, had a lot of board to work with when pumping. A board that is too streamlined just doesn't seem to have the omphf necessary for pumping.
As for the trucks, to be honest, and probably because I have had quite a few years of experience on 180 mm trucks, the 150's sometimes feels a little tippy and the odd overexuberant set of pumps often had one of the front wheels off the tarmac. But I'm sure in time I'll become more in tune with these trucks.
I miss the power on the uphills that the wider trucks provide but on the flats the cadence of the 150's seems just right.
Well now I dont' have many excuses - its time to really work on pumping technique! I'll be working on various stances and trying to make the pumps as efficient as possible. Right now I still feel pretty slow and at times awkward going long distances on the board but I'm hoping the speed and grace will come as my technique improves.
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wedged trucks
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On 12/8/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
'ouch' munchh! hope the recovery speed along!
Yeah I do wedge the Randals depending on the application. For example I run my 180's wedged on the front of my DH...go figure. For me its a case of trial and error. If a board runs more the way I like it to with the hardware modified I go for it.
I have the 180 R2's wedged on my 44 inch LBL cruiser but not on my 60 inch LBL. So it just depends what type of skating I intend to do on a particular board as to whether I'll wedge the trucks or not.
Along the same lines, I often flip the hangers on the R2's. I just really like the how the turns are 'smoothed out' that way.
As for loose, for the front truck, I like to run the Randals loose. Again even my speedboard has relatively loose trucks with soft bushings. I have always enjoyed skateboards the feel 'alive'under my feet hence the loose trucks and soft bushing combo.
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Nice looker Erin.
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On 12/8/2005
Munchh
wrote in from
United Kingdom
(86.132.nnn.nnn)
Lookin good Erin, i've never wedged RII's though, i always wondered if you would wedge them opposite from standard geometry trucks, looks like i'm learning again, can you still run them loose? Or are they responsive enough not to?
Will be trying a few diffrent setups as soon as the weather sorts its self out and i get these splints out of my nose.
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one more pic
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Ok, here's a pic of the top of the Vice-grip as well.
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'vice grip'
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(66.183.nnn.nnn)
Eric I'll try post some picture here. When I get a chance to put some more kilometres on this new LDP deck I'll report back on how it compares to the longer wb boards. But then again I skated those mostly using the 180 R2's and like James as suggested, a 150 truck offers a much more versatile cadence than a wider truck which is good when you have created some speed or are on a slight downhill.
As for the trap, I've got to look into that. I have been practicing cyber but have not yet played with skating the trap.
I'll try a few different options for photos and see which works. Here we go:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v210/Eyrinn/vicegrippinstop.jpg
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Rayne LDP
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On 12/7/2005
silversurfer
wrote in from
United States
(71.192.nnn.nnn)
Erin that Rayne Vice sounds like a perfect LD pumper. I'd like to hear more about how it matches up with the R2 150's and grippins. Does the truck/wheel combo equal the width of the deck or is it narrower than the deck? Please post a pic here or on sf, if you get a chance.
40" seems to be a very good size to me, as does a 27" wb. I'm looking at decks in the 36" to 40" for a medium distance pumper. I know you were thinking longer for your LBL LDP, but I'm wondering how you find the 40 compared to the longer cruising deck you had the trucks and wheels on before. Which is easier/faster to pump?
The side profile of the Vice looks almost exactly like the profiles of James'
LBL 43" and his Roe S camber in the picture below. Nice choice.
Also I'm wondering if you or James or anyone here has run the trap?
I know you do cyber slalom and the trap is similar, but different.
What do you (anyone) think would be the ideal deck size and truck/wheel
combo for the ideal trap set up? I'm thinking something between a big GS slalom board and a LDP type set up. I want a set up to use for the trap and medium distance pumping/skogging. Thanks - Eric.
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LDP "Vice"
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Finally I have a deck that is specifically set up for LDP. For the past months I have been running R2 180's on cruiser boards and working on my pumping technique with those sets ups as well as on my slalom decks.
Yesterday I purchased a Rayne Vice. This 40 inch board had a gentle concave and slight camber. I had Graham of Rayne drill another set of front truck mount holes so that now the trucks are about three inches from the nose and the wheel base is 27 inches. I added a foot block on the extra front hole and mounted my new 150 R2's. I am still waiting for my new Hot Spots so I put some split duro Grippins on for the time being. I wedged the front 15 degrees and the back about 10 degrees which is more than I have ever wedged a LDP board.
Given my size 7 1/2 feet and 130 lb bag of bones, this board seems perfect for me. The relative stiffness of the flex really made a big difference to the ease with which this set up pumps. And, for the first time, I really noticed how the narrower trucks contributed to a very comfortable 'cadence' when in the pumping groove.
I'll report back when I have put a bit more milage on this set up but at the moment this is by far the most effient ride for LDP that I have had so far.
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LDP trucks
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On 12/7/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
James thanks for your summary of the function of the trucks you have used for LDP. It is so helpful to the development to the relatively new discipline of skating long distance via pumping to have you share your discoveries and observations.
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re: LDP breakage
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On 12/6/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(24.18.nnn.nnn)
There's few if any trucks currently built with long distance pumping in mind, which figures, given the newness of this as a 'sport' + its small market. Non-stop flatland torque heats up and fatigues parts quickly. So far the front CarverCX has gone the longest mileage without failure (500m+), although I've broken two *back* Grade-8 kingpins with these this year. On Carver C7s and RTR just one small internal spring has broken -- which I'll take any day over a kingpin snap. These don't bust into two parts, but just get loose, so you know somethings not quite right and you can step off and fix it.
By the way Erin the RTR guys ROCK! - they sent multiple springs and said thanks for "riding the hell out of our trucks." And yeah its fairly easy to pop new springs in, though realize these surf trucks are made of about 25 puzzle parts, whereas the CX or Randals are 5-6 parts total. Same thing with Original when my bushings and baseplates blew out, they replaced them straight up and even sent extras. As for Randals/Gullwings/SplitFires I still dig 'em, just ALWAYS flip the Grade-8 kingpins and replace blown-out bushings, which lengthens their lifespan for a couple hundred+ miles (instead of 80-90 mile average standard mounted.)
Again most of this breakage doesn't apply to downhill carving and casual or intermittent pumping -- its seems kingpins rarely break for downhillers, and surf trucks like Carvers and RTRs will last almost "indefinately" for the downhill carving and mellow cruising they were designed for.
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breakage
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On 12/2/2005
Erin
wrote in from
Canada
(142.22.nnn.nnn)
Another issuse for me is breakage. This seems part and parcel of long distance applications with trucks that were not specificaly designed with that type of skating in mind.
I am reluctant to experiment with many different trucks in the same way as James has done due, not only to the excessive costs of getting trucks shipped in from the States, but also to the difficulty and cost incurred getting parts for repair.
Right now I am sticking to R2's as it is a truck that I can obtain and repair easily.
James I really enjoyed skating those RTR trucks that you had mounted on your LBL deck. How are things going in terms of replacing/repairing the spring? Is it fairly easy to do?
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back-front systems
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On 12/2/2005
peters
wrote in from
United States
(64.236.nnn.nnn)
Can't wait to see what you're creating Chris. Taking pre-orders?! I was glad to see Carver and RTR designed carving 'systems', though I think still more thought can go into the back truck, both of those use a traditional rear truck, which is why I'm now trying Tracker offsets or Split-fire in back.
My prefs are: Front - loose swivel, with high performance rebound, optionally split-axle geometry. Back - adjust tightness with bushing duros and tightening kingpin nut, split-axle / off-set geometry. What would be really great in a new front truck is the ability to use larger wheels (75mm) without having to jack up the deck too far to avoid bite. For this reason right now I'm digging the RTRs...
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How to Pump